Clearing my name!!

[webdog]

Since Jesus did not come through the normal means of conception He had no sin nature.

Pure opinion NOT supported by Scripture. Based on this test tube babies don't have sin natures either.

While He had the choice to sin He did not have the ability.

How is this not a contradiction?! No ability means there can be no choice. This would be like tying me up and then telling me I have the choice to leave. Wrong on so many levels

The humanity of Christ could never be separate from or unsupported from His deity

Exactly what I have been saying, hence the CLEAR tension found that supports neither position.

If He was only a man it could only have finite value and He could not be able to save today.

Nobody has said otherwise, nor would I disagree.

Well, I think that this seals the deal about Jesus not being able to sin, fellas!!! At least it does for me.

Well I am glad you are content with your position and it seals the deal for you...but nothing from that article seals the deal on the issue I'm afraid.

 

[Skandelon]

I do not believe Jesus could sin...never
a google search shows this.....

I was referring to the common line of many Calvinists when speaking of their compatiblistic version of free will. When a non-Calvinists argues that men are able to come to Christ, they rebut saying something like, "He is able but not willing."

That is what I was referring to. Jesus was physically able to throw himself down and let the angles come to his rescue as Satan tempted Him to do, but he was not WILLING, nor would he ever be. I think you will find many Calvinists who would agree with this explanation of "free will" even in relation to Christ.

 

[webdog]

But, you fail to realize or mention that Henry, likely, makes a distinction between "human nature" and "sin nature."

The Archangel

Where does Scripture make the distinction?

 

[JesusFan]

You left out MUCH of my post. I said I REFUSE to believe Jesus had a sin nature, and that I do not like to associate sin with Jesus whatsoever.

Either you are a VERY CARELESS reader or you INTENTIONALLY misrepresent me.

Which is it?

What I said is that the scriptures teach Jesus has the same nature as us, which is true. (Heb 2:16-18)

I said men are not born with a sin nature, but are "flesh" having lusts and desires and this should more accurately be called a "temptation nature". Jesus DID have this nature that he inherited from Mary. Jesus could be tempted. He could not have inherited this ability to be tempted from his Father, as God CANNOT be tempted.

per the Bible, ALL men are born into the Sin of Adam, are counted by god as being "in Adam", sinners spiritually dead before/to God...

Jesus, second Adam, had a human nature like Adam, perfect and sinless huma nature, NOT like ours in that regard, and also being God, could never sin!



Temptation is not sin. Jesus could be tempted, but he NEVER sinned.

So, you pulled my comments out of context and totally misrepresented me. You should be ashamed, Christians are supposed to be honest.

Don't you deny the biblical doctrine of original Sin though?

And jesus DID NOT inherit his nature from mary, in the sense that God is His father, and the HS produced Him in mary, and so "by passed" the sin nature of rest of us!

HAD to be Virgin born, or else he would have indeed gotten SAME flesh as us, and NOT qualified to be the Messiah!

 

[Jerome]

Straight from the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals website:

Could Jesus Have Sinned?

Richard Phillips of Second Presbyterian Church, Greenville, SC, formerly of Tenth Presbyterian, Philadelphia, chairman of the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology, and author of the Reformed Expository Commentary on Hebrews, explains:

The biblical answer is an emphatic "yes." Jesus could have sinned.

the writer of Hebrews says, "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin" (Heb. 4:15). An aspect of Jesus' full humanity is that he could sin and he also could truly suffer under temptation.

We might say that Jesus could sin but that he would not sin.

Being able to sin is part of humanity -- although the desire to sin is merely a corruption of true humanity -- so Jesus as true man could sin. This was part of his true human nature. But the person of Jesus would not sin because his true humanity was fortified by his true deity.

 

[JesusFan]

Straight from the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals website:

Could Jesus Have Sinned?

Richard Phillips of Second Presbyterian Church, Greenville, SC, formerly of Tenth Presbyterian, Philadelphia, chairman of the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology, and author of the Reformed Expository Commentary on Hebrews, explains:

And the reason that He did not sin was NOT JUST due to Him being God, but also that He chose to rely upon the power of the HS to preserve Him/keep Him from sinning!

 

[DHK]

Pure opinion NOT supported by Scripture. Based on this test tube babies don't have sin natures either.

That is the wild speculation and unfounded opinion.
Everything that man touches is corrupted. There is nothing on this earth that is not under the Curse, and that includes infants. There is no such thing as "innocence." That was taken away at the Fall. Even the whole creation: "that innocent lamb," that innocent seal," etc. Ask PETA about all the "innocent" animals. There is nothing innocent. Everything is corrupted. All is under the curse directly related to Adam's sin.

Paul starts with a wonderful promise of the resurrection:
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)
--Our bodies are corrupted. They have been since the day they were born--both spiritually and physically. There is nothing innocent about them. As believers we wait for that day when Christ comes, when we will suffer no longer.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Romans 8:19)
The word "creature" means "creation". All of creation waits for this same day--when the curse will be lifted; when the Millennial Kingdom will begin.
The WEB puts it this way:
For the creation waits with eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. (Romans 8:19)
--God's creation cannot wait, so to speak, when we as believers will inhabit the earth, and the curse will be lifted. As for now the entire creation lives under a curse--including infants.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, (Romans 8:20)
For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but because of him who subjected it, in hope (Romans 8:20) WEB:
--The creation has been subjected to the curse, not of its own will, but because of Adam's sin. It is God that caused it to be this way. Before Adam sinned everything was in perfect harmony. Man never had any problem with mosquitoes. The lamb could lie near to the lion. But after Adam sinned, mosquitoes have been one of the worst nuisances man has ever encountered, being the cause of many diseases. The lion has become carnivorous, the hunter, and the lamb its prey. All of nature was thrown into disarray. It is under the curse.

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Romans 8:21)
--Someday the creation will be delivered from the bondage of this corruption. Someday Jesus will come again. Someday the curse will be lifted. Someday, this creation will be released into the same liberty that we as believers will have in the Millennial Kingdom will have. Even the creation waits for it.

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (Romans 8:22)
--The entire creation groans, travails, is under the curse, even now. It will be until that curse is taken away when Jesus comes at the end of the Tribulation and takes away that curse. But now even the very creation of God is under the curse--babies of all sorts--animals and humans. Everything is under the curse. Nothing is innocent.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:23)
--Not only God's creation, but we also wait for our redemption. We wait until the curse be taken away. We wait for the redemption of our bodies. An infant is born corrupted, with a sin nature. He/she must wait for the redemption of their bodies. They are part of the creation of God. God cannot redeem a body without redeeming the soul and the spirit. In other words he must redeem the entire person. The entire person comes into this world corrupted, under the curse. There is no such thing as innocence in this word. To say so is just pure emotional sentimentality.

Thus man being born with a sin nature inherited by Adam, Jesus being born of a virgin and conceived by the Holy Spirit escaped having a sin nature.

 

[JesusFan]

That is the wild speculation and unfounded opinion.
Everything that man touches is corrupted. There is nothing on this earth that is not under the Curse, and that includes infants. There is no such thing as "innocence." That was taken away at the Fall. Even the whole creation: "that innocent lamb," that innocent seal," etc. Ask PETA about all the "innocent" animals. There is nothing innocent. Everything is corrupted. All is under the curse directly related to Adam's sin.

Indeed, as we are ALL in Adam, that the fall made us fallen and sinful creatures! God imputed the Sin of Adam to us all, and we are in original sin!



Paul starts with a wonderful promise of the resurrection:
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)
--Our bodies are corrupted. They have been since the day they were born--both spiritually and physically. There is nothing innocent about them. As believers we wait for that day when Christ comes, when we will suffer no longer.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Romans 8:19)
The word "creature" means "creation". All of creation waits for this same day--when the curse will be lifted; when the Millennial Kingdom will begin.
The WEB puts it this way:
For the creation waits with eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. (Romans 8:19)
--God's creation cannot wait, so to speak, when we as believers will inhabit the earth, and the curse will be lifted. As for now the entire creation lives under a curse--including infants.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, (Romans 8:20)
For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but because of him who subjected it, in hope (Romans 8:20) WEB:
--The creation has been subjected to the curse, not of its own will, but because of Adam's sin. It is God that caused it to be this way. Before Adam sinned everything was in perfect harmony. Man never had any problem with mosquitoes. The lamb could lie near to the lion. But after Adam sinned, mosquitoes have been one of the worst nuisances man has ever encountered, being the cause of many diseases. The lion has become carnivorous, the hunter, and the lamb its prey. All of nature was thrown into disarray. It is under the curse.

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Romans 8:21)
--Someday the creation will be delivered from the bondage of this corruption. Someday Jesus will come again. Someday the curse will be lifted. Someday, this creation will be released into the same liberty that we as believers will have in the Millennial Kingdom will have. Even the creation waits for it.

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (Romans 8:22)
--The entire creation groans, travails, is under the curse, even now. It will be until that curse is taken away when Jesus comes at the end of the Tribulation and takes away that curse. But now even the very creation of God is under the curse--babies of all sorts--animals and humans. Everything is under the curse. Nothing is innocent.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:23)
--Not only God's creation, but we also wait for our redemption. We wait until the curse be taken away. We wait for the redemption of our bodies. An infant is born corrupted, with a sin nature. He/she must wait for the redemption of their bodies. They are part of the creation of God. God cannot redeem a body without redeeming the soul and the spirit. In other words he must redeem the entire person. The entire person comes into this world corrupted, under the curse. There is no such thing as innocence in this word. To say so is just pure emotional sentimentality.

All are in sin state of sin before the Lord, but we also know that death of Jesus can/has atoned for even those unable to have faith by themselves, such as infants and mentally challenged!

Christ death sufficient to cover them despite their sins, and God can forbade their sins by effectually apply Grace of the Cross unto their accounts!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

DHK.....splendidly laid out. Bravo!

 

[DHK]

All are in sin state of sin before the Lord, but we also know that death of Jesus can/has atoned for even those unable to have faith by themselves, such as infants and mentally challenged!

Christ death sufficient to cover them despite their sins, and God can forbade their sins by effectually apply Grace of the Cross unto their accounts!

Christ died for all the sins of all mankind, but his atonement is efficacious only to those who believe, "for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

In regards to infants we must fall upon the mercy of God, even as David did. "Will not the judge of all the earth do right?" Abraham said.
We believe that He, being full of grace and mercy, will take infants to heaven, despite their inability to put their faith in Him who died for them.

 

[quantumfaith]

Straight from the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals website:

Could Jesus Have Sinned?

Richard Phillips of Second Presbyterian Church, Greenville, SC, formerly of Tenth Presbyterian, Philadelphia, chairman of the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology, and author of the Reformed Expository Commentary on Hebrews, explains:

Excellent article. Thanks for sharing.

 

[The Archangel]

Another article--actually a video--by John Piper.

Very helpful discussion about Jesus' two natures.

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/ask-pastor-john/was-it-possible-for-jesus-to-sin

By the way, Richard Phillips and John Piper are both on the council of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. So, no one should make the mistake of thinking that Phillips speaks for the group.

The Archangel

 

[quantumfaith]

Just to insert a brief moment of levity into our often rambling and quarrelsome disagreements. Allow the following to represent our "challenges" to one another, but hopefully with smile upon our faces.

http://thechive.com/2011/08/26/dog-vs-cat-the-most-epic-standoff-ever-recorded-video/

Be sure to have your sound on, as the sound track adds so much.

 

[percho]

Jesus being the only begotten of God through the seed of the woman Mary was indwelt with the Holy Spirit from the day she brought forth her firstborn son until the day he died. Jesus from the day he was born until the day he died was led by the Spirit and walked in the Spirit. The moment he died he said this:

Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Then: Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus 2c4:14 (and) A2:32,33 This Jesus hath God raised up, Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit,

God the Father raised Jesus the Son from the dead and gave again to Jesus the Son the promise of the Holy Spirit. It had been promised to Abraham and his one seed Christ.

He become the begotten children of God the Father when we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit from the Father through the Son Jesus. He Jesus is still the only begotten of the Father through the seed of the woman and we through Jesus.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Then:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


It was possible for Jesus to sin but he did not.

 

[Winman]

DHK, there is not one word in scripture to support that Jesus had to be born of a virgin to avoid a sin nature. The scriptures tell us why Jesus was born of a virgin.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Jesus being born of a virgin was a SIGN. It identified him as the Son of God.

Jesus inherited his flesh that could be tempted from Mary. James 1:13 tells us God CANNOT be tempted. But the scriptures clearly tell us Jesus was made in ALL THINGS like his brethren the seed of Abraham. Those who say Jesus was made like Adam before the fall are directly contradicting the word of God. The scriptures tell us Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus could not have inherited the ability to be tempted from his Father, as his Father CANNOT be tempted. Therefore he inherited this ability from his mother.

The Catholics realized this truth, and so invented the Immaculate Conception.

The scriptures do not teach we have a sin nature that causes us to sin, it teaches we are flesh which is weak and easily susceptible to temptation. Adam and Eve were easily tempted before the fall. This is the nature of flesh, and the nature Jesus had in the flesh. He could be tempted.

But temptation is not sin as clearly shown in James 1:13-15. Temptation arises from our fleshly lusts, but only when a man obeys these lusts does he sin.

Jesus felt temptation as that article correctly showed, but he never obeyed his fleshly desires when they would have caused him to sin.

 

[Aaron]

It is impossible for God to lie. Jesus could not sin. As soon as He did, He would cease to be God, and He cannot deny Himself.

 

[Winman]

It is impossible for God to lie. Jesus could not sin. As soon as He did, He would cease to be God, and He cannot deny Himself.

It is impossible for God to die, but Jesus died on the cross didn't he?

This is what happens when you try to deny Jesus came in the flesh as 1 Jn 4:1-3 warns us some will do.

 

[JesusFan]

DHK, there is not one word in scripture to support that Jesus had to be born of a virgin to avoid a sin nature. The scriptures tell us why Jesus was born of a virgin.

IF God was NOT His father, IF the HS did NOT conceive Him int he womb of mary, he would have had same sin nature as we all do!

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Jesus being born of a virgin was a SIGN. It identified him as the Son of God.

Jesus inherited his flesh that could be tempted from Mary. James 1:13 tells us God CANNOT be tempted. But the scriptures clearly tell us Jesus was made in ALL THINGS like his brethren the seed of Abraham. Those who say Jesus was made like Adam before the fall are directly contradicting the word of God. The scriptures tell us Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus has NO sin nature as we all do, his was undefiled and perfect...

Are you saying that he was just like us in that he was NOT a sinner unless/until he commited sin?

Jesus could not have inherited the ability to be tempted from his Father, as his Father CANNOT be tempted. Therefore he inherited this ability from his mother.

The Catholics realized this truth, and so invented the Immaculate Conception.

The scriptures do not teach we have a sin nature that causes us to sin, it teaches we are flesh which is weak and easily susceptible to temptation. Adam and Eve were easily tempted before the fall. This is the nature of flesh, and the nature Jesus had in the flesh. He could be tempted.

But temptation is not sin as clearly shown in James 1:13-15. Temptation arises from our fleshly lusts, but only when a man obeys these lusts does he sin.

Jesus felt temptation as that article correctly showed, but he never obeyed his fleshly desires when they would have caused him to sin.

Do you hold Jesus was FULLY GOd and man while on the earth?

You do see Him as being God in a flesh that was NOT a sinful nature like all of us have!

 

[preacher4truth]

It is impossible for God to lie. Jesus could not sin. As soon as He did, He would cease to be God, and He cannot deny Himself.

Amen! I have stated this dogma also against the error that one said "Jesus could have sinned." This is fallacious teaching. I stand against it and always will.

I also unashamedly stand against those who teach or state God/Christ had a sin nature.

You are 100% correct, He would and could not be God if He could sin, nor if He had a sin nature. Anyone teaching otherwise is in error.

 

[Winman]

Do you hold Jesus was FULLY GOd and man while on the earth?

You do see Him as being God in a flesh that was NOT a sinful nature like all of us have!

I guess you missed half this thread, I do not believe men are born with a sin nature, I believe men are born flesh (the word the scriptures use) and are weak and easily tempted.

Adam and Eve were flesh, and sinned the very first time they were tempted.

Nowhere do the scriptures say God cursed man's spiritual or moral nature. I challenge you or anyone here at BB to show that. You won't be able, because it's not there, it is an extra-biblical man-made doctrine.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Jesus spoke this to the disciples before they received the Holy Spirit. They were willing to obey Jesus in their spirit, but the flesh was weak and pulled and tugged them to fall asleep. This shows what man's nature is like. The flesh lusts and wars against the spirit.

When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that is exactly what happened, they acquired the knowledge of good and evil which made them accountable. Therefore they were convicted of their sin and died.

Corruption was introduced when God cursed the ground. Thorns and thistles sprung up and man's labor was increased. Man would return to the dust. This applies to all of creation, even animals, insects, sealife, and plants that cannot sin are subject to this corruption and die. Even unliving things wear old, rust and corrode. Man's flesh was affected, resistance against sin was weakened, and it became even easier for man to fall for temptation.

But again, having the ability to be tempted and the potential for sin does not make you a sinner.