Clergy and Politics

[church mouse guy]

There is good news!

Yesterday USA Today printed an article about the increased number of conservatives in Congress in an article entitled Conservatives welcome 'new day'.

Part of the new agenda of the conservatives concerns clergy and politics. According to USA Today, "Rep. Walter Jones, R-N.C., will reintroduce a bill that would make it legal for churches to participate in political campaigns without losing tax-exempt status. It's not clear whether Bush will weigh in on the issue."

This law by Rep. Jones would undo the 501-c-3 imposed by Lyndon Johnson 50 years ago in a successful attempt to silence his Texas foes.

I believe that preachers deserve total freedom of speech. At any rate, the current law is unenforceable because the USA is blessed with tens of thousands of churches, and the government can't check them all.

In this case, I agree with The Happy Warrior, Al Smith, 1928 Democrat candidate for President, who said then that the only cure for the ills of democracy is more democracy.

Gov. Smith is right.

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

I would agree that there should be no legal restrictions on a church's political activities. I would also say that churches should not prostitute themselves to politicians or politiacl parties.

 

[liebeskind]

Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
I would agree that there should be no legal restrictions on a church's political activities. I would also say that churches should not prostitute themselves to politicians or politiacl parties.

BINGO!

 

[ScottEmerson]

I don't like it - it goes against one of our Baptist distinctives of the separation of church and state. As a Baptist, I hope this bill doesn't become law. Even if it does, I still will not endorse a political candidate nor will I encourage other ministers to do so.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Kind of the way Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton does?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
I don't like it - it goes against one of our Baptist distinctives of the separation of church and state. As a Baptist, I hope this bill doesn't become law. Even if it does, I still will not endorse a political candidate nor will I encourage other ministers to do so.

EXCELLENT post, Scott, as always.

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Kind of the way Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton does?

Absolutely.
By the way, was it by design that you omitted Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Nope. Them too.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

I thought so.........

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I don't think you understand. I actually agreed with you on that. Go back and read my post again and try not to be so hostile toward me just because we disagree on many things.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I don't think you understand. I actually agreed with you on that. Go back and read my post again and try not to be so hostile toward me just because we disagree on many things.

Joseph, you really need to calm down.

You said:

Them too.

to which I replied:

I thought so.........

I showed no hostility whatsoever, and that is patently obvious to anyone.

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
I don't like it - it goes against one of our Baptist distinctives of the separation of church and state. As a Baptist, I hope this bill doesn't become law. Even if it does, I still will not endorse a political candidate nor will I encourage other ministers to do so.

It doesn't say that anyone HAS to become political. It simply says that you MAY if you want to.

I dislike Toyotas and would never buy one. But I don't think that there should be a law saying that you can't.

BTW, note that above I did say that churches should not become agents of political parties or candidates.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Here's the reason it needs to be passed or some form of clarification needs to be addressed **and** enforced...

Some churches blatantly campaign for liberal candidates and know they will *never* be prosecuted by the IRS because they are a minority...

Meanwhile Conservative Pastors have to carefully skirt the issue because they know that if they go on record from within the church building a suit *will* be filed against them...

A Comment was made about Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson vs Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell...

Al and Jesse go right into churches and state emphatically who to vote for or else the minorities will lose everything....

While Pat and Jerry have to build separate empires to even hint at what would be a preferable candidate...

And, if either of them *ever* stated so from the pulpit you'd better believe every ACLU lawyer in the country would have them in court...

That's not equity... And, it is comparing Apples to Rotten Eggs

Incidently up north the left actually hired people to attend church and record what was said and several complaints were filed against pastors...

Almost all were dismissed but the churches still had to defend themsleves...

To date I have not heard of one minority church pastor (unless it was a conservative pastor) who was filed against...

I am willing to accept contrary facts in this matter. But, as I said, to date I haven't known of one contrary piece of evidence...

But, that could be because the liberal media wants to only terrorize and intimidate the conservatives? So, they only 'trumpet' it when a conservative gets filed against?

I think a pastor should be able to state his personal opinion from the pulpit addressed as his personal opinion...

I do not think a denomination should sponsor or mandate a given candidate to it's adherents....

However, on issues of morals and ethics I believe it is perfectly acceptable to highlight *all* a candidates high and low points...

As sermon illustrations...

And, Jim is right, no one *has to* become political... It would just clarify and allow the political speech already 'suffered' in minority churches with impunity in mainstream conservative churches as well...

For better or ill...

And, Ill it may well be, because not all conservatives think political decisions through to their logical conclusions...

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
Here's the reason it needs to be passed or some form of clarification needs to be addressed **and** enforced...

Some churches blatantly campaign for liberal candidates and know they will *never* be prosecuted by the IRS because they are a minority...

Meanwhile Conservative Pastors have to carefully skirt the issue because they know that if they go on record from within the church building a suit *will* be filed against them...

...

Yep. Because any time a Christian such as Roy Moore attempts to take a stand against the corrupt system, he gets shot in the back by his own.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Putting up a huge, ugly monument in the middle of the courthouse under the cover of darkness not NOT count as taking a stand against a corrupt system by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[fromtheright]

No one shot Moore in the back. He shot himself in the foot.

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

No, you're wrong. The final prosecution of Moore centered around whether he would promise not to mention God in the courtroom. It was the question put to him by Pryor. He said that he could not promise not to mentinon God in the courtroom, and was removed from office.

 

[fromtheright]

I do agree with you and am greatly bothered by some of the questions put to Moore by Pryor but as to the essence of his actions, I agree that Pryor did the right thing. I would note, though, that mentioning God in the courtroom in a case in which God is not an issue should be done carefully. As little as I care for the claim that Christian conservatives seek a theocracy, using God's name in a case that should be decided under statutes and the law has little place. I see no problem with mentioning, by a prosecutor, that a crime is in violation of God's law also, but a jury should be charged with seeking justice under man's law. And man as citizen and legislator should seek to ensure that man's law follows God's law to a great extent.

 

[Bartimaeus]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
I don't like it - it goes against one of our Baptist distinctives of the separation of church and state. As a Baptist, I hope this bill doesn't become law. Even if it does, I still will not endorse a political candidate nor will I encourage other ministers to do so.

First of all Bro Scott, 99% of our Baptist Churches today have already gone over to the other side by being in league with the gov. by 501-C-3 not for profit gifting. The USSCT has said without hesitation that it is a "benefit". We have built our churches on the back of uncle sam already. We are riding his mule. Secondly, you need to read up on your Baptist History. Many, many times our historic Baptist Pastors have had election sermons ready for election time. The cases cited in this forum of churches having to go to court are exactly what I am talking about. Pastors have a muzzle in the pulpit and they have willingly put it on at the hands of the IRS. Is. 56:10
Thanks ------Bart

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
I would agree that there should be no legal restrictions on a church's political activities. I would also say that churches should not prostitute themselves to politicians or politiacl parties.

True, thank you! I was disgusted at one of the officials running who was allowed to step behind the pulpit of my church...knew her to be corrupt and it hurt to see her standing in the house of the Lord being applauded and praised.
I'd *think* most churches would have the brains not to involve themselves that deeply in politics that they would endorse outsiders from within. But they don't.
They ain't gonna let me bring religion into their government offices, but I should accept their politics in my church? I THINK NOT
Gina

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Bartimaeus:
We have built our churches on the back of uncle sam already. We are riding his mule. Secondly, you need to read up on your Baptist History. Many, many times our historic Baptist Pastors have had election sermons ready for election time. The cases cited in this forum of churches having to go to court are exactly what I am talking about. Pastors have a muzzle in the pulpit and they have willingly put it on at the hands of the IRS.

Maybe I am missing something but could you show me one political sermon Jesus ever gave.

The problem is not in the world. The problem is in the church. The strongest churches are where there is the most opposition.