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Clergy and Politics
- Thread starter church mouse guy
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One need not worry about the ideal of what the pulpit should be. The pre-revolutionary-war pulpit was a hotbed of independence preaching, especially in the Presbyterian Church.
We need to deal with the reality of Johnson's law. The reality is that the ACLU and the Southern Poverty Law Center and The Rev. Barry W. Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State in Washington, DC, along with other liberals are unconcerned about whatever may be said in pulpits in favor of Democrat candidates.
Like the prohibition of liquor, this law is also unenforceable.
It needs to be repealed. With the death of LBJ, there ceased to be a need for this law.
We need to deal with the reality of Johnson's law. The reality is that the ACLU and the Southern Poverty Law Center and The Rev. Barry W. Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State in Washington, DC, along with other liberals are unconcerned about whatever may be said in pulpits in favor of Democrat candidates.
Like the prohibition of liquor, this law is also unenforceable.
It needs to be repealed. With the death of LBJ, there ceased to be a need for this law.
There is no need to run to the federal government for police enforcement if your preacher becomes too political. Just run for the nearest door and find another church. It should not be a federal legal problem. If Democrats can endorse candidates during services in the liberal churches, then freedom of speech demands that non-liberals be allowed the same right. The idea of yanking tax exemptions from 100,000 churches is nonsense. The government probably has no right to tax churches anyway in spite of the court ruling in the Bob Jones University case--a college is not a church.
Bartimaeus
New Member
Church Mouse, When a church is a "C-3" corporation and a University is a "C-3" corporation they are technically and legally the same. Whatdayaknow....the Lord's Church in the same boat as the humane society and the local wiccan (sp) society and our preachers have done it to get a benefit.
Thanks ------Bart
Thanks ------Bart
A college and a church may be legally the same, but they are not spiritually the same. There are many good reasons for a church to be incorporated. That does not change its spiritual nature.
As for preaching in the church, one of the great weaknesses of the church is that too many preach their own opinions rather than the word of God. It is not wonder the church is weak. We have people on both sides preaching political opinion when the Bible says not one word about the American political situation. Therefore, politics are not a valid subject for a church to be preaching. WE can and should address issues hte Bible talks about. We should not address issues hte Bible does not talk about.
As for preaching in the church, one of the great weaknesses of the church is that too many preach their own opinions rather than the word of God. It is not wonder the church is weak. We have people on both sides preaching political opinion when the Bible says not one word about the American political situation. Therefore, politics are not a valid subject for a church to be preaching. WE can and should address issues hte Bible talks about. We should not address issues hte Bible does not talk about.
There is no doubt that what you are saying, Pastor Larry, has been the attitude of the last fifty years. And there is nothing illogical or wrong with your point of view.
However, the law has become a mockery in that like the prohibition of liquor it is unenforceable. So the Democrats let Kerry give a stump speech during church service and then call the Feds when the GOP registers voters somewhere in a side room of a church.
The point is the federal government should not be the one to say what a preacher can and can not preach. That is the way that it was until 1954. We should return to the way that it was before Landslide Lyndon passed his sneaky, crooked law in 1954, probably to cover up how he stole the election to the senate from Texas in 1948 by 87 votes with the help of Judge Parr, the "duke" of Duval County, Texas.
As the Happy Warrior, Gov. Al Smith, said, the only cure for the ills of democracy is more democracy.
However, the law has become a mockery in that like the prohibition of liquor it is unenforceable. So the Democrats let Kerry give a stump speech during church service and then call the Feds when the GOP registers voters somewhere in a side room of a church.
The point is the federal government should not be the one to say what a preacher can and can not preach. That is the way that it was until 1954. We should return to the way that it was before Landslide Lyndon passed his sneaky, crooked law in 1954, probably to cover up how he stole the election to the senate from Texas in 1948 by 87 votes with the help of Judge Parr, the "duke" of Duval County, Texas.
As the Happy Warrior, Gov. Al Smith, said, the only cure for the ills of democracy is more democracy.
As as been often pointed out, they do not now, nor have they ever, been the ones to say what a preacher can or cannot say. He can say whatever he likes from the pulpit. That is not restricted in any way.
What he may not be able to do is retain tax exempt status for the church while doing so. But those are entirely different issues.
I agree that there is unequal enforcement. I have long said that. Predominantly urban churches are hot beds of political activity during elections and it seems they are rarely challenged. They should be. But that does not change the law.
The IRS in no way dictates the message of any church.
I cannot seem to make myself clear. There should be no taxing of any church for any reason. The federal government controls political speech in churches because they threaten to tax. With hundreds of thousands of churches in the USA, it is impossible for the Feds to police them fulltime looking for political speech in order to penalize with taxes.
Of course, the IRS dictates the message of a church. People who are not Democrats have to tiptoe around. Democrats are allowed to do whatever they please.
Since the law is corrupt, passed by a crooked politician, then all political parties should be allowed to do whatever they please. The IRS should not be in the business of deciding what is okay in a church.
Removal of the 501c3 does not call for political activity in a church. It merely calls for the withdraw of threats from what you, Pastor Larry, have said were predominantly urban churches that are hotbeds of political activity during elections--and at all other times, I would add. We should not threaten to tax Democrat churches, which should not be cleaned up by the federal government even if it is currently legal.
It is immoral to tax churches no matter what.
Of course, the IRS dictates the message of a church. People who are not Democrats have to tiptoe around. Democrats are allowed to do whatever they please.
Since the law is corrupt, passed by a crooked politician, then all political parties should be allowed to do whatever they please. The IRS should not be in the business of deciding what is okay in a church.
Removal of the 501c3 does not call for political activity in a church. It merely calls for the withdraw of threats from what you, Pastor Larry, have said were predominantly urban churches that are hotbeds of political activity during elections--and at all other times, I would add. We should not threaten to tax Democrat churches, which should not be cleaned up by the federal government even if it is currently legal.
It is immoral to tax churches no matter what.
I agree to a point.
Many pastors have said they cannot preach.... But I have always been one to say otherwise. Jonathan Edwards said othewrwise as well. But the congregation did not like it.
I have never been afraid to ask people to do ministry with me. Some have gotten mad. Some always have an excuse. Some deacons have actually told me they don't like witnessing and have actually told me to not call on them to pray in public too
If every pastor would call on people to do ministry with him we would have a very different church in America. Isn't that what the early church did? Why should we be any less with God? I believe most people in most churchers have been trained to do nothing and if they do something it has nothing to do with outreach but rather church beautification.
A few years back a pastor told me his church was dead and not growing. I asked him about his plan to do door to door evangelism. He told me he didn't have time for that. I told him I would lead him and show him how. He still did not want to. When he left another pastor came and the church started growing immediately because the new pastor did evangelism and ministry.
You are clear. You are just wrong.
Debatable, but irrelevant. God never declared the church to be free from taxes.
God is the one who controls political speech. If a pastor speaks on politics then he is sinning against God. He needs to be preaching the Bible, which does not address politics in any country, much less modern American.
No, it doesn't. I keep pointing this out to you, but you are not listening.
I don't tiptoe a bit. I preach the word.
They aren't.
Where did God say this?
Jesus addressed the politics of the day. He told the people to give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. That solves the problem. But so often peope want to play junior Holy Spirit and go beyond what Jesus did. All too often when non-Pentecostals hear a preacher preach on the Holy Sprit they think he is someone to question and be viewed as strange.
Is it just me, or is it not obvious the political endorsements of folks like Jerry Falwell, D. James Kennedy and Pat Robertson?
From a Falwell sermon:
"A pollster on a recent network TV talk show reported that 27% of the voters in the November 7, 2000 presidential elections were so-called 'religious right'. We call this huge minority bloc 'conservative evangelical Christians'. Since over 100 million voted, 27% translates to over 27 million voters. About 82% of these conservative Christians voted for George W. Bush.
Without these 20 millions evangelical votes, Al Gore would be President of the United States today. I cannot imagine a more depressing thought."
"We have much for which to thank God. Following our never-to-be-forgotten 9/11 national tragedy, our noble Christian President has led us in a most successful war against worldwide terrorism. ... While the liberal media and the liberal Democrats are yelling about the WMD, I could care less."
I dare anyone to listen to Kennedy for more than 5 minutes and not know his politics.
As far as taxing churches ... I believe some churches and ministries have abused the tax exemption and should be subject to taxes. JMO.
From a Falwell sermon:
"A pollster on a recent network TV talk show reported that 27% of the voters in the November 7, 2000 presidential elections were so-called 'religious right'. We call this huge minority bloc 'conservative evangelical Christians'. Since over 100 million voted, 27% translates to over 27 million voters. About 82% of these conservative Christians voted for George W. Bush.
Without these 20 millions evangelical votes, Al Gore would be President of the United States today. I cannot imagine a more depressing thought."
"We have much for which to thank God. Following our never-to-be-forgotten 9/11 national tragedy, our noble Christian President has led us in a most successful war against worldwide terrorism. ... While the liberal media and the liberal Democrats are yelling about the WMD, I could care less."
I dare anyone to listen to Kennedy for more than 5 minutes and not know his politics.
As far as taxing churches ... I believe some churches and ministries have abused the tax exemption and should be subject to taxes. JMO.
About ten years ago, the New Yorker magazine ran a fairly complete profile of LBJ. What your pastor told you is just one small nuggat in a giant treasure trove. He was very colorful and certainly corrupt. But what did him in with his own party was his expansion of the Vietnam War.
Pastor Larry, don't mix me up with Galatian; I listen to you.
We disagree that it is a sin for a preacher to endorse a candidate in the pulpit. We also disagree that the IRS should have the right to tax a church because the church expresses political opinions during services in the pulpit.
You say that you don't tiptoe around because you don't discuss politics. That is fine. No one wants you to stop what you are doing.
However, many other preachers do discuss politics. You say that discussing politics is a sin and that you want the IRS to tax those churches.
You never say how the law is going to be enforced since there are so many churches where politics is discussed in the pulpit. Suppose the IRS catches a church endorsing Kerry from the pulpit. What is to stop the church from changing their name, re-registering with the government, and thereby avoiding the tax penalty?
If politics in the pulpit is a sin as you say, then why not let God punish the sin instead of the IRS?
We disagree that it is a sin for a preacher to endorse a candidate in the pulpit. We also disagree that the IRS should have the right to tax a church because the church expresses political opinions during services in the pulpit.
You say that you don't tiptoe around because you don't discuss politics. That is fine. No one wants you to stop what you are doing.
However, many other preachers do discuss politics. You say that discussing politics is a sin and that you want the IRS to tax those churches.
You never say how the law is going to be enforced since there are so many churches where politics is discussed in the pulpit. Suppose the IRS catches a church endorsing Kerry from the pulpit. What is to stop the church from changing their name, re-registering with the government, and thereby avoiding the tax penalty?
If politics in the pulpit is a sin as you say, then why not let God punish the sin instead of the IRS?
Daisy, do you know who exactly Landslide Lyndon was trying to silence in 1954 and what was the reason that he wanted them silenced?
I agree that LBJ was very colorful and certainly corrupt. He was liked my Republicans for his color and his ability. There was a cartoon showing the Congress as a wild west saloon and LBJ sitting at a table with a bottle of "Ole Moderation, 100% Veto-Proof." It is true that Ike never vetoed any of Johnson's stuff because it was middle-of-the-road at the time. The 501c3 was snuck through, buried in other legislation. It was a long time before the nation woke up to what it was all about.
I agree that LBJ was very colorful and certainly corrupt. He was liked my Republicans for his color and his ability. There was a cartoon showing the Congress as a wild west saloon and LBJ sitting at a table with a bottle of "Ole Moderation, 100% Veto-Proof." It is true that Ike never vetoed any of Johnson's stuff because it was middle-of-the-road at the time. The 501c3 was snuck through, buried in other legislation. It was a long time before the nation woke up to what it was all about.
My position is based on the nature of the task of preaching. Preaching is a biblical task that uses the Bible as its base of authority. There is no way to use the Bible legitimately to endorse political candidates. It is not a sin to endorse political candidates. I believe it is a sin to abuse the authority of the pulpit where the Bible is supposed to be the authority to do such. WE can with biblical authority address issues like homoseuxuality and abortion. I did both using the Bible as the authority. I talked about the incoherence of a Christian voting for a candidate who openly supports abortion. But I did so from a biblical basis.
The IRS has the right to do whatever the law says it can. Tax exemption is not a biblical command.
I don't care whether the IRS taxes them or not. Under current law, they should be consistent. IF they are going to go after churches that endorse Republicans, then they should go after churches who endorse Democrats as well.
But the bigger issue is that preachers in the pulpit should stick to God's word. It is the power of God unto salvation, and salvation is the world's greatest need. Why talk about something else?
I don't care how it is enforced. It doesn't matter to me. As with many crimes, they are punished when they are reported.
Nothing ... This sort of stuff happens a lot through other means, like when rich people set up tax shelters or shell corporations to hide income.
God has ordained the government as his servant. God quite often punishes through secondary causation, through the use of other means.
Then 'separation of church and state,' which has been preached in Baptist pulpits for 2 or 3 centuries, should not therein be preached "without a time for differing viewpoints." Is this your view? </font>[/QUOTE]Have you ever asked a Baptist preacher where the issue of the separation of church and state came from and how it originated? If not try it sometime. Ask your pastor this Sunday.
There are too many ignorant preachers who use the pulpit to express their opinion when they know little or nothing about the issues. How many preachers preach what they hear and not what they study? The pulpit is not an excuse for opinion. If you needed heart surgery you would not want to wait for a lecture on who to vote for if you were near death. The gospel demands an immediate radical Christianity not a bully preacher. Radical Christianity requires action by a radical Christian not a bully pulpiteer.
Remember there are always two sides. One side looks right until the other side is presented. However scripture has one side--God's and its true and righteous. That is the position I want to stand on.
Several years ago I called on every preacher in an evangelical church in the immmediate area to join with us in speaking against the local high school about what one of the teachers was requiring to be read in her junior English class. Not one would join us but I got a lot of excuses when I called. We got no response from the school so we went to the media and got an evening news interview. That interview got immediate action. It was amazing what happened to our attendance too.
I have never preached a political message but taught the people the Bible and how to make disciples. People that take personal responsibility in their private lives will also do it in their public life. He who is faithful in little is faithful in much....
Bartimaeus
New Member
WE can with biblical authority address issues like homoseuxuality and abortion. I did both using the Bible as the authority. I talked about the incoherence of a Christian voting for a candidate who openly supports abortion. But I did so from a biblical basis.
Pastor Larry,
It does not matter what basis you did it from, if you are a C-3 church you have made an agreement to stay out of politics. You are preaching politics when you talk about anything having to do with any candidate. Your actions and your statements are inconsistent by your own admission. You will continue to be inconsistent as long as moral Biblical issues are part of any political platform and preach the Scriptures. You want to hold on to the government goodies and preach what you say is truth.
Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
May God give you the wisdom to know that you are wrong on your position.
Thanks ------Bart