Clergy and the 10 Commandments fight

[KenH]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Did pagans know to keep one day aside for worship to God?

There is no mention in the 4th Commandment about worshipping God. It is commanded simply as a day of rest.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by KenH:
There is no mention in the 4th Commandment about worshipping God. It is commanded simply as a day of rest.

There you go, Ken, bringing Scripture up again!

It is amazing how we "read back" into OT Judaism the patterns of modern Christianity. The sabbath observance was FAMILY, not CORPORATE. Corporate worship for Jews consisted of Temple sacrifice, feasts, pilgrimages, etc.

Even the synagogue was a place for minstry of the Word (study) and prayer, NOT for praise and worship services to hype up the faithful as are so many of our churches today.

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

 

[wopik]

Bart --

wopik, In your idea of faith and practice, what position am I in (before God)if I say that I have trusted in the blood sacrifice of Christ for my salvation and yet I understand the feasts and commandments and do not keep the feasts and the sabbath?


I still think it is needful to keep the annual feasts of the Lord and the Lord's holy day. Jesus' sacrifice and death obviously did away with the laws of animal sacrifices, but not the moral Ten Commandments. The Ten show us how to love God and love our neighbor. That's still relevant.

When God acts in history, it usually is on one of His "appointed times". For example, Jesus dying on Passover and the Holy Spirit given on Pentecost.

God must have known that giving the Holy Spirit on Pentecost would reinforce that day for the Apostles and disciples.

The next sequential "appointed time" is Feast of TRUMPETS. Just coincidental that the next big event for Jesus - in human history - is His return to Earth at the seventh or last TRUMP?

Might God use another one of His annual holy days to satisfy His plan?

God does continually find new uses for His Feasts. NT uses.

 

[Bartimaeus]

I appreciate the information you provided. You still did not answer my question. Waiting.

Thanks ----Bart

 

[wopik]

wopik, In your idea of faith and practice, what position am I in (before God)if I say that I have trusted in the blood sacrifice of Christ for my salvation and yet I understand the feasts and commandments and do not keep the feasts and the sabbath?
Thanks ----Bart

Not sure what you are asking? If your asking me whether I think it is OK to keep the Feasts and 7th day Sabbath of the Lord, as a Christian, I would say sure. Paul and the Apostles did.

what position am I in (before God)... I would think you would be in a "saved" position before God.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by wopik:
How do the Christian clergy feel about the 10 Commandments being taken out of some US court houses?

They don't even believe the commandments are binding! All the major denominations teach that the law is "done away," "nailed to the cross," "bondage" and "legalism!" Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... Are you kidding? The preachers explain that away every other Sunday. So what's the beef?

The apostles of the NT eventually worshiped on Sunday celebrating the resurrection. So if they who wrote the NT can do it as a practice I guess so can other Christians who come after them.

 

[wopik]

But it's very likely the Resurrection never was on a Sunday --

http://www.centuryone.com/crucifixion.html

 

[Ben W]

Acts 18:20-21 When they asked him to stay a longer time with them he did not consent, but took leave of them, saying, "I must by all means keep this comming feast in Jerusalem, but I will return to you God willing." and he sailed from Ephesus.

1John 5:2-3 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and when we keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments and His commandmnents are not burdensome".

 

[Bartimaeus]

wopik,
Now I understand you a little more.
Thank you very much. -----Bart

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
So what if the 10 commandments go away. They were for a particular people for a particular time.

No they weren't. They were made for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, of all time.

Originally posted by Daniel David:
The moral law of God is transcendant.

True

Originally posted by Daniel David:
I prefer to worship and follow Christ over Moses.

Me too.

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Christ said that the law and prophets hang on two laws:

1. Love God with all of your being
2. Love your neighbor as yourself

That puts these two laws over and above the 10 commandments

How does it do that? How can you say you love your neighbor if you covet anything he has? If you lie to him, steal from him, murder him, etc.?

Actually, you find that St. Paul was right again when he said, "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself," Gal. 5:14.

What the 2nd Table does is actually convince you that you do not love your neighbor as yourself. It convicts you of sin. James spoke to this end when he invoked the Ten Commandments to show his listeners the violation of the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, James 2:8 - 13.

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Note that if you read these verses in the Old Testament, you don't see anything about them being the greatest commandments.

So?

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Christ took it upon himself to introduce a new law.

Hold it right there. Here is where most dispies jump the track. Christ introduced no new law. He restored the law to its true meaning.

No doubt you are referring to Matt. 5:21-48. You make the common mistake of confusing "them of old time" with Moses and the Prophets. When Jesus said "them of old time," He was referring to the ancient rabbis and their traditions. Some of how their tradition was passed down I picked up from a book I have. It quotes (among other traditions in the imaginary talk with Jesus) the Mekhilta Attributed to Rabbi Ishmael LIII:II.7,

"Eleazar ben Hananiah ben Hezekiah ben Garon says, "'Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy:'

and then would follow the body of commentary which through their traditions made the law of God of none effect.

Where in the Old Testament does it ever say, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy," (vs 43)? I challenge you to find that in Moses and the Prophets. You won't, because it's not there. Again, Jesus was not quoting Moses and the Prophets, He was quoting rabbinical tradition.

Originally posted by Daniel David:
The O.T. was for the nation of Israel (saved and unsaved).

The N.T. is for believers.

Not sure what you mean here. You need to be more specific. St. Paul said all Scripture is...profitable.... The OT is for the church as well.

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Note that Moses said not to murder. Christ said to not even hate.

Moses also said not to hate.

"Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD," Lev.19:17-18.

But even if Moses didn't spell it out, it is obvious to Christians that the prohibition against murder extends to even that murder that lies in our hearts. Are you saying the commandment allows us to harbor anger and bitterness in our hearts, but prohibits the mere outward action?

If so, you know nothing of the law of God, but then, your treatise here is no glittering jewel.

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Covenant theologs have Christ as the greatest expositor of Moses. Christians have Christ as the new law giver.

Actually true Christians have Him as both.

Originally posted by Daniel David:
The sermon on the Mount for covenant folks is really just the Talmud of Jesus.

Question for those who believe the 10 commandments are the moral law:

did God write on the heart of every person (including pagans per Romans 1-2) that they should set aside the 7th day as one of rest?

It wouldn't matter if it was written there or not, the Sabbath day is part of Creation, and they are accountable to know it.

Originally posted by Daniel David:
I didn't think....

Let's just leave it right there like that. I think that says it all.

 

[Daniel David]

Aaron, Aaron, Aaron, come and let us reason together on this...

No they weren't. They were made for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, of all time.

Okay, so people of all time must wear clothes made of one material, eat certain foods, not work on the seventh day (except acts of mercy and love), observe the feasts, tithe, stone disobedient children, make accused women drink dusty water, etc.

No, they were for a particular people for a particular time. Was not Israel filled with sinners?

Paul goes out of his way to say that we are no longer bound to obey the Mosaic law. The Jews (even saved) were required to follow every tenet of the law. They weren't allowed to divide it up as covenant theologs have conveniently done today.

In relation to my saying the greatest commandment and the one like it are superior to the 10, you said

How does it do that ?

Here is how. The O.C. does not say that the greatest commandment is to love God with all of your being. In fact, every law is treated as equally important. There is no "greatest law" to Moses.

Christ though says it is the greatest. Who gave him the right to proclaim one law greater than another? God did. Christ is the NEW law-giver.

The 10 of Moses is inferior to the 2 of Christ.

Here is where most dispies jump the track.

Actually, on this point I am of the New Covenant Theology persuasion (which is not dispensationalism). Christ wasn't just doing away with Moses' law, he was also doing away with the pharisaical interpretation of it. He wisked it all away.

Not sure what you mean here.

Of course all of Scripture is profitable. That isn't what I am talking about.

The Old Covenant was for all of Israel (saved and unsaved). The promise of the New Covenant is a new law on a new people. When the New Covenant has reached its completion, none shall say to know the Lord, for all will know him. Do all people know the Lord? Of course not.

Are you saying the commandment allows us to harbor anger and bitterness in our hearts, but prohibits the mere outward action?

Christ extended the definition of murder to include even hatred.

Actually true Christians have Him as both.

No. Christ did not exposit Moses. He introduced a new law. It is superior to that of Moses.

New priesthood, new law, new covenant, new mission, new people, etc.

 

[Aaron]

When Paul spoke of the duty of congregations to pay their ministers, to what did he appeal? He appealed to Deuteronomy 25:4, the Law of Moses.

Christ did expound Moses. See Luke 24:27 and 24:44.

DD, you are usually right on, but you have missed the mark on this one. You are basing your ideas on a host of unsubstantiated assumptions. I, on the otherhand, have countered every one of your assumptions with appeals to Scripture and how the Apostles have applied the OT to NT situations.