Cleveland cops shot boy, 12, just 2 seconds after arrival

[Sapper Woody]

Maybe it would be more credible coming from an ex cop?

Honestly, whether that gives him him more credibility or not (in my eyes) depends on how long he's been out. For military, the longer they've been out, the more out of touch they are with those who are in. With that being said, I mostly agree with him. At the very least I can say that he wasn't being unreasonable.

The former NYPD cop says 'Today the combination of an excess of deadly force and near-total lack of accountability is more dangerous than ever: Most cops today can pull out their weapons and fire without fear that anything will happen to them, even if they shoot someone wrongfully. All a police officer has to say is that he believes his life was in danger, and he’s typically absolved.

This is probably the thing I disagree with most. An officer its still accountable for his actions. I would agree with that statement if it said he had to show that a reasonable person would have been in fear for his life.

What do you think that does to their psychology as they patrol the streets—this sense of invulnerability? The famous old saying still applies: Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.'

He also dismisses the idea that police officers should use certain types of equipment while on the job.

'The automatic weapons and bulletproof vest may protect the officer, but they also insulate him from the very society he’s sworn to protect,' he asserts. 'All that firepower and armor puts an even greater wall between the police and society, and solidifies that "us-versus-them" feeling.'

What he says here has some merit. I can see how some would start to get that mentality. I think that the officers should have access to that equipment, but not use it on a regular basis. I believe that's the way it is now.

At the end of his essay for POLITICO Magazine, Serpico offers a six-point solution, which he says includes police using better methods to find new police officers, offering 'examples-based training and simulations,' making sure cops understand their communities and are active in them, holding police accountable when they do something illegal, rewarding and recognizing honest police officers, and also making sure police are monitored externally.

I see nothing unreasonable here.

The size of the problem isn't the problem, the problem is that the problem exists. If a problem exists the time to solve it is before it becomes a big problem.

I agree. But you don't gas your whole house because you saw one bug. You only have to do that if you let the problem get out of hand. At this stage, we see a couple of roaches. It's time to call terminex, and spray, but not to abandon the house.

What does the number of police officers killed in the last few weeks have to do with this story?

I was letting people know why the police are quick to shoot when there's the appearance of a weapon.

My personal opinion on this story is that the officer involved should not be prosecuted, but should lose his badge. While I believe he was legally within hits rights, I think he has shown a propensity to shoot too quickly. At the very least he should be reassigned to a desk job.

 

[poncho]

Honestly, whether that gives him him more credibility or not (in my eyes) depends on how long he's been out. For military, the longer they've been out, the more out of touch they are with those who are in. With that being said, I mostly agree with him. At the very least I can say that he wasn't being unreasonable.

Evidently Frank has kept up on things.

This is probably the thing I disagree with most. An officer its still accountable for his actions. I would agree with that statement if it said he had to show that a reasonable person would have been in fear for his life.

Had to show who? In the NYPD the corruption went to the top. Do you suppose that all ended after Serpico was ostracized and the movie came out? You and I wouldn't even have learned that without hearing Serpico's story. I don't know what that tells you but it tells me there is a code of silence from the top of the criminal justice system to the bottom when it comes to corruption.

Prime example, Eric Holder.

Ah but I'm being to cynical aren't I? The police do a wonderful job of protecting us and keeping us safe. When they aren't confiscating people's property to fund their operations. And SEE THIS

The practice of seizing property from citizens has grown dramatically in recent years. According to a University of Kentucky study, in 1986, the Department of Justice's civil forfeiture fund was $94 million. By 2010, it exceeded $1 billion, according to the Department's own findings.

Only "some" cops are involved in this right? But it's all legal you say? Being legal doesn't always mean it's right. Abortion is legal.

What he says here has some merit. I can see how some would start to get that mentality. I think that the officers should have access to that equipment, but not use it on a regular basis. I believe that's the way it is now.

Some? How many is some? Can you put a number on it?

I see nothing unreasonable here.

I don't either that's why I can't understand why some here are so quick to start running cover for the police before they even consider these six points.

I agree. But you don't gas your whole house because you saw one bug. You only have to do that if you let the problem get out of hand. At this stage, we see a couple of roaches. It's time to call terminex, and spray, but not to abandon the house.

If the pest control guy sees a couple roaches in a house he knows there's hundreds more he can't see.

I was letting people know why the police are quick to shoot when there's the appearance of a weapon.

Were you? Or was it a plea for sympathy because the man wears a uniform?

My personal opinion on this story is that the officer involved should not be prosecuted, but should lose his badge. While I believe he was legally within hits rights, I think he has shown a propensity to shoot too quickly. At the very least he should be reassigned to a desk job.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

 

[righteousdude2]

Agreed .....

American cops do not have a trigger happy reputation.

To begin with .... this is another horrible tragedy. A senseless death of a young person. I morn and feel deeply for the family and friends of this child, and only wish things would have ended differently!
HOWEVER, I continue to ask myself why do these kids, teens and adults just not do what the cops ask? Do everything as asked, and make no unsudden moves! Just raise those hands!

If I was there (and I am sure it would be true for all of you, unless you are wanting badly to have a state funeral in your name) will shoot the moment the criminal or suspect makes a move that may NOT be what you directed, and could in turn be placing your life and your partner's life in danger.

Look! The streets are mean, and the truth is, young people are shooting killing people today at an alarming rate, and that means there is no room for mistakes when it comes to split-second decisions that pertain to your life over the perps life!

If you who criticize these cops would just trade places with them, would you be able to say that you might not do as they did? No one goes to work each day, thinking that maybe today I'll just blow away someone, let alone a kid? That is not the mindset of a normal person, and I have worked with cops for years, and never seen one of them do anything that was intentionally planned. I have also been with some cops in situations that put me in their hands and under their protection, and I was glad they were there, guns drawn and ready to fire if the situation justified it!

I can't think that anyone, and that includes those two cops as well as Officer Wilson in Ferguson, will never stop second-guessing themselves for one minute the rest of their life? :tear:

No one can fully understand what it's like to take a life of another until you have been handed the weapon and put in the same situation!

 

[righteousdude2]

Were you? Or was it a plea for sympathy because the man wears a uniform?

Poncho, please don't take this wrong. But, how can you be critical of these cops or others, when you post with a moniker of a soldier with a rifle in hands with bayonet fixed? :type:

 

[righteousdude2]

What a sheltered life you live. Try going to any European country and ask about the reputation of US police. Go to any Black community and ask about the reputation of US police.

Your reply would be funny if it were not so tragically blind.

CTB - may I suggest that you request of your local law enforcement, that you be granted a ride along some night. Maybe you will see things differently from the front or backseat of the patrol car?

 

[righteousdude2]

We could use the Barack Obama rules of engagement...

The suspect has to fire first. A few cops would get killed, but they're not any more important than our troops. Are they? That should satisy even Serpico enough that he wouldn't complain about their body armor.

We know how that matrix would read .... we saw it in Benghazi and now in Ferguson. Obama likes to procrastinate until it is tooooooo late for those in need of protecting! He has still not made an attempt to evict Russia from Crimea! He must be thinking on what to do? :laugh:

 

[Crabtownboy]

CTB - may I suggest that you request of your local law enforcement, that you be granted a ride along some night. Maybe you will see things differently from the front or backseat of the patrol car?

Righteous, my local police have helped me on several occasions. Additionally they do not seem trigger happy as we have had no killings of young black men in situations like the ones we have read about recently. They have always been polite and respectful. Perhaps that is why they have not had to resort to violence. The community does not view them as trigger happy folk. That certainly is not true in some communities ... as we read all to often in the newspaper, the Internet, etc.

On your suggestion, I doubt they would let a local non-policeman ride with them. Anyway, their actions, or lack of actions have shown they are better trained and not prone to immediate violence. I have great respect for them.

 

[Salty]

... we have had no killings of young black men

So they have killed women and young white men

On your suggestion, I doubt they would let a local non-policeman ride with them.

Have you asked?

Anyway, their actions, or lack of actions have shown they are better trained and not prone to immediate violence. I have great respect for them.

Hmm, I wonder what the crime rate is?

 

[righteousdude2]

Righteous, my local police have helped me on several occasions. Additionally they do not seem trigger happy as we have had no killings of young black men in situations like the ones we have read about recently. They have always been polite and respectful. Perhaps that is why they have not had to resort to violence. The community does not view them as trigger happy folk. That certainly is not true in some communities ... as we read all to often in the newspaper, the Internet, etc.

On your suggestion, I doubt they would let a local non-policeman ride with them. Anyway, their actions, or lack of actions have shown they are better trained and not prone to immediate violence. I have great respect for them.

I am sure they'd love to have you go along. As for trigger happy. None are trigger happy. Just looking out for their own life. They have a family to go to after their shift, and to think long is to think wrong, and unlike your life (which is based on fantasy, not reality), they face a bullet every time they respond to any type of call. BTW - they kill other than blacks. They kill a human being. They usually have little time to notice skin color when events unfold in mere seconds. Like the supposedly two seconds in the case being bantered around in this post. I don't know where you live, but the world is getting more dangerous....REALLY!

 

[ShagNappy]

We could use the Barack Obama rules of engagement...

The suspect has to fire first. A few cops would get killed, but they're not any more important than our troops. Are they? That should satisy even Serpico enough that he wouldn't complain about their body armor.

How about we use the old, pre-militarized police rules of engagement. Stop 30 to 40 yards out and inform the suspect they need to drop the weapon or be fired upon? Nah, that's crazy, lets pull up 3 feet from him and come out shooting... just another dead n***er, right? One less to mooch off your taxes and steal your wallet.

 

[just-want-peace]

Nah, that's crazy, lets pull up 3 feet from him and come out shooting... just another dead n***er, right? One less to mooch off your taxes and steal your wallet.

Is this one of those "deflect" modes typical of liberals, or can you substantiate such an accusation?
Oh, I know you did not ACTUALLY accuse anyone, but your post strongly implies this of the situation. (Otherwise why even make such a statement?)

 

[poncho]

Poncho, please don't take this wrong. But, how can you be critical of these cops or others, when you post with a moniker of a soldier with a rifle in hands with bayonet fixed? :type:

The minute man is a symbol of freedom and vigilance.

Being critical of government when it's methods become authoritarian in nature is part of being vigilant and protecting our freedom.

Let me ask you two questions. What is government, and what is it's proper role?

 

[righteousdude2]

The minute man is a symbol of freedom and vigilance.

Being critical of government when it's methods become authoritarian in nature is part of being vigilant and protecting our freedom.

Let me ask you two questions. What is government, and what is it's proper role?

Government is not what we see evolving before our eyes in DC. The recent "wave of the hand" making it illegal to deport illegal's is but one example of this evolution!

Proper role, is to be there to make laws and enforce laws that improve the flow of services within the government to better serve the people and prtect it's freedoms and rights; to protect this nation from outside aggressors; and support the democratic process of individual states making up the balance of what this nation stands for, "One nation UNDER God!"

Big government that interferes with every aspect of our life, limiting our God given freedoms is not what we are about, but what we are gradually becoming!

 

[carpro]

How about we use the old, pre-militarized police rules of engagement. Stop 30 to 40 yards out and inform the suspect they need to drop the weapon or be fired upon? Nah, that's crazy, lets pull up 3 feet from him and come out shooting... just another dead n***er, right? One less to mooch off your taxes and steal your wallet.

If you say so.

 

[righteousdude2]

How about we use the old, pre-militarized police rules of engagement. Stop 30 to 40 yards out and inform the suspect they need to drop the weapon or be fired upon? Nah, that's crazy, lets pull up 3 feet from him and come out shooting... just another dead n***er, right? One less to mooch off your taxes and steal your wallet.

That comment is cemented in anger and framed in hate! So sorry you think that this is the way the cops look at other races! No wonder we have so much hate and division in the country!

 

[Gina B]

Those types of guns look extremely realistic. At 12 years old, who doesn't know better than to point them at people? They are not toy guns. They have a warning imprinted on them that say they are not toys and can cause injury or death - at least the ones I've seen do.

If I was armed, I'd likely shoot someone who pointed one at me, because I'd be in fear for my life. The people who called the police felt there was a credible threat. However, did the kid have time to point it, or even reach for it, when the police showed up? Looks like the officer driving was still fully inside the vehicle when the other officer shot, and the shooting officer didn't appear fully out of the vehicle himself by the time the kid hit the ground. I actually didn't see what happened the first time I saw it, because I figured the police were going to get out of the car and give an order, then shoot, not shoot at almost the same time the car stopped. I am not getting how they had time to be afraid for their lives, unless they saw the kid reaching for the gun AS they were driving up, but they seemed to be going really fast for that, and if they saw him reaching as they drove, why put yourself that close to what you believe is someone ready to shoot you? What would have happened if the callers were lying? How did police know they were not? Did they treat the situation based on what they saw and felt on arrival or only on what was said? Because people do call and lie or make mistakes.

Still, you shouldn't go around pointing realistic looking guns at people and not expect someone to shoot you. Even if you're a kid. A bullet shot by a 12 year old will kill you the same as a bullet shot by a 50 year old. I keep hearing people say "well it's true that they look real, but he was only twelve!"
So it's okay to defend yourself from an adult, but you just let kids shoot you? I can't agree.

I just don't know. This sounds justified but looks wrong. When police say they feared for their life when a guy was pointing a banana, (go look that one up) I start having my doubts about the truth of officers who say they felt threatened. It's been said so many times in highly questionable circumstances that it lowers the credibility of the statement drastically, so now it becomes questionable even in cases where it is much more likely to be true.

 

[Revmitchell]

Being critical of government is one thing. Bad mouthing all cops in order to accomplish that purpose is over the top, wrong headed, and just flat out wrong.

 

[ShagNappy]

Is this one of those "deflect" modes typical of liberals, or can you substantiate such an accusation?
Oh, I know you did not ACTUALLY accuse anyone, but your post strongly implies this of the situation. (Otherwise why even make such a statement?)

Same could be said for you. I am a conservative Republican smart guy. Got an argument or just insults? Did you watch the video of it happen? I did. It's all over the place. They shot the kid before the car stopped moving and almost ran him over in the process.

 

[ShagNappy]

That comment is cemented in anger and framed in hate! So sorry you think that this is the way the cops look at other races! No wonder we have so much hate and division in the country!

I realize you have family who are police, and I take that into account here, but the police, as a whole, are very quickly becoming out of control. They have been militarized by the Federal Government because the feds can't find an end run around the Posse Comitatus Act and they are acting like military in combat situations rather than what they are supposed to be... Peace Officers. I have countless friends who are cops and it does not change my opinion one wit.

My "anger" has nothing to do with cops being out on control. Never in my life had a problem with the cops and, as I mentioned, am friends with many. It's the blind allegiance to certain things people think they are supposed to be in favor of, and even public support of a child with a bb gun getting gunned down. Did you watch the video? How anyone here can support what they did is really telling about the state of "Christianity."

 

[righteousdude2]

I realize you have family who are police, and I take that into account here, but the police, as a whole, are very quickly becoming out of control. They have been militarized by the Federal Government because the feds can't find an end run around the Posse Comitatus Act and they are acting like military in combat situations rather than what they are supposed to be... Peace Officers. I have countless friends who are cops and it does not change my opinion one wit.

My "anger" has nothing to do with cops being out on control. Never in my life had a problem with the cops and, as I mentioned, am friends with many. It's the blind allegiance to certain things people think they are supposed to be in favor of, and even public support of a child with a bb gun getting gunned down. Did you watch the video? How anyone here can support what they did is really telling about the state of "Christianity."

Actually, no family are cops. I did work in social services putting sex crime perps in jail, and I did so in conjunction with cops. I also have cop friends, spent five years as a chaplain for LA County Cpos-4-Christ, and spent about ten years working on DOJ grants, and three more interviewing law enforcement and judges in every county of Nebraska and writing a 600 page report on the lack of services and agencies available to meet the needs of youth and teens arrested and incarcerated for Status Offender crimes. During that time I also ran a county wide demonstration grant that set and and established a pilot program for youth offenders and families in Hall County, NE. During that time I road along with the Sheriff's youth prevention officer on Saturday nights to serve as a crisis counselor. I had all the time because I was single at the time. So from 1977 through 2000, I grew to love and appreciate my brother police officers.

I can honestly say I never once witnessed hate or racial bias towards others of color. And I did this work in the mid west and southern Cali.

Thanks for your response. :wavey: