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Clinton's Kosovo Whopper

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by carpro, Oct 2, 2006.

  1. Daisy

    Daisy New Member

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    True, but badly. Merely saying the first point was covered by the OP when it was not, is an answer of sorts, I suppose...you're really sticking with the contention that the Bosnians had something to do with 9-11?! That's a conversation stopper.

    You say that Clinton did not stop the genocide - what then? You think it's still going on or that it was just a weird coinky-dinky that it happened to stop just then?

    Btw, where do your figures on casualties come from?
     
  2. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    It seems as if you're not counting the 45,000 Iraqui non-combatents who have died in the Iraq war. That kind of make your supposition ridiculous doesn't it?
     
  3. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington New Member

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    Carpro!

    Why don't you back up the claims you make in threads like this when you are questioned as to your source? Is it because you are too lazy, or is it because you like to make things up?
     
  4. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Interesting post . . .

    With as much as that cost us . . . ya' would think the terrorists would be nice for a century or two. . .

     
  5. The Galatian

    The Galatian Active Member

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    (Walguy does a little false witness)

    Actually I was in favor of overthrowing Saddam. I'm disappointed, but not surprised that you'd lie about that. What bothered me was that after we overthrew Saddam, Bush did everything to strengthen the terrorists. His own intelligence people, we now learn have come to the same conclusion.

    The last time there was trouble in Bosnia, there were some consequences for the US. About 118,000 dead American soldiers. Do you think that's sufficient interest?

    Institutionalized rape and genocide aren't enough reason for you?

    [quiote]Iraq, where a madman was sponsoring international terrorism[/quote]

    Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Turns out that Saddam was murdering Islamic fundamentalists, and the terrorists were calling for his death.

    Just the opposite of what you're trying to sell us. Anyway, there were pefectly good ways to take out Saddam without turning Iraq into a haven for terrorists. But Halliburton wanted a return on those campaign contributions, and the neocons wanted a country on which to perform their experiments in social engineering.

    And so it went. If Bush had been president when the Serbs were performing genocide, we'd be mired down in a losing war in Serbia now.
     
  6. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    You really are having a hard time keeping Kosovo, the subject of this thread, and Bosnia straight, aren't you?
     
  7. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    Posted articles for political discussion are not my claims. They are the claims of the author.

    Try to keep it straight.:smilewinkgrin:
     
  8. Daisy

    Daisy New Member

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    Do you think the claims are credible or not?
     
  9. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    Most are. In your opinion, some may not be.

    If that is what you believe, point them out and I'll wade right in if I feel like it.
     
    #29 carpro, Oct 5, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2006
  10. Daisy

    Daisy New Member

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    Well, which ones in particular? After all, it's silly to post an article "for discussion" and then refuse to discuss it.

    What's your game here?

    Hey, this is your thread - you might show some interest in it.
     
  11. The Galatian

    The Galatian Active Member

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    My guess is he went and checked out those claims he's been passing on, and discovered to his horror that they are faked.
     
  12. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    I am interested, but...

    How can I respond to your objections to the posted subject if you won't tell me what they are?
     
  13. The Galatian

    The Galatian Active Member

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    For starters, you could substantiate the claims I called you on.
     
  14. Daisy

    Daisy New Member

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    I'm not asking you to respond to my objections, I'm asking you which points of the article you posted you agree with. You want I should enumerate them?
     
  15. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    Which ones do you disagree with, besides the 6 that have already been answered?
     
  16. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    Clinton's bombing killed several thousand innocent people in defense of an Al quaeda supported KLA.


    http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7006/KLA-drugs.html

    KLA rebels train in terrorist camps
    By Jerry Seper

    THE WASHINGTON TIMES

    Some members of the Kosovo Liberation Army, which has financed its war effort through the sale of heroin, were trained in terrorist camps run by international fugitive Osama bin Laden -- who is wanted in the 1998 bombing of two U.S. embassies in Africa that killed 224 persons, including 12 Americans.

    The KLA members, embraced by the Clinton administration in NATO's 41-day bombing campaign to bring Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic to the bargaining table, were trained in secret camps in Afghanistan, Bosnia-Herzegovina and elsewhere, according to newly obtained intelligence reports.

    The reports also show that the KLA has enlisted Islamic terrorists -- members of the Mujahideen --as soldiers in its ongoing conflict against Serbia, and that many already have been smuggled into Kosovo to join the fight.

    Known to its countrymen as the Ushtria Clirimatare e Kosoves, the KLA has as many as 30,000 members, a number reportedly on the rise as a result of NATO's continuing bombing campaign. The group's leadership, including Agim Ceku, a former Croatian army brigadier general, has rapidly become a political and military force in the Balkans.

    The intelligence reports document what is described as a "link" between bin Laden, the fugitive Saudi millionaire, and the KLA --including a common staging area in Tropoje, Albania, a center for Islamic terrorists. The reports said bin Laden's organization, known as al-Qaeda, has both trained and financially supported the KLA.
     
  17. The Galatian

    The Galatian Active Member

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    Yeah, and we've already seen "links" between Al Qaeda and Saddam that turned out to be entirely products of Bush's imagination.

    Sorry. Not many people are dumb enough to fall for that one, twice. But we do have a few facts:

    End to ethnic cleansing, institutionalized torture, rapes, etc. in the Balkans.

    Free and peaceful Kosovo and Bosnia.

    And Americans are loved there. Even by Muslims.

    You finally learned your "thousands of dead from bombing" stories were Serb propaganda, didn't you? That's why you've cut and run twice when you were challenged on it.

    Ironically, this first came from the World Socialist Website. That's right, carpro, you're parroting Communist propaganda...

    :laugh:
     
  18. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    More of the Clinton legacy on terrorism.

    http://www.deltax.net/bissett/a-terrorism.htm

    WAR ON TERRORISM SKIPPED THE KLA
    For National Post

    U.S. President George W. Bush has made it clear the war against terrorists will be unremitting and relentless. Even those countries affording shelter to terrorists will not be spared. These words come too late for the Serbs, Gypsies, Jews, Turks and other non-Albanians who have been driven from their ancestral homes in Kosovo by the terrorist Kosovo Liberation Army.

    It is too late as well for Macedonia, which has been forced by the United States, the European Union and NATO to yield to all the demands of the Albanian terrorists in that country. This double standard and lack of consistency when dealing with terrorists calls into question the policies the United States and its NATO allies followed in the Balkans. It also underlines the necessity for the United States and its allies to clean up their act if they wish to retain credibility in the war against terrorism.

    The bombing of Yugoslavia in the spring of 1999 allegedly to stop ethnic cleansing and prevent the Balkans from becoming once again the powder keg of Europe has backfired. Kosovo has become exclusively an Albanian province with the exception of a few stalwart Serbians in the Mitrovica area who live surrounded by barbed wire and are threatened daily with murder and mayhem by their Albanian neighbours. The Balkans, since the end of the bombing, have been in constant turmoil caused by the KLA terrorist activities.

    SNIP

    That condemnation should not have come as a surprise. As early as 1998, the U.S. State Department listed the KLA as a terrorist organization financing its operations with money from the international heroin trade and funds supplied from Islamic countries and individuals, including Osama bin Laden. This did not stop the United States from arming and training KLA members in Albania and in the summer of 1998 sending them back into Kosovo to assassinate Serbian mayors, ambush Serbian policemen and intimidate hesitant Kosovo Albanians. The aim was to destabilize Kosovo and overthrow Serbian strongman Slobodan Milosevic.

    Bin Laden and radical Muslim groups have been deeply involved in the Balkans since the civil wars in Bosnia from 1992 to 1995...
     
  19. The Galatian

    The Galatian Active Member

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    ...and now for a non-communist assesment...


    The war inflicted many casualties. Yugoslavia claimed that NATO attacks caused between 1,200 and 5,700 civilian casualties. Human Rights Watch counted a minimum of 500 civilian deaths in 90 separate incidents. NATO acknowledged killing at most 1,500 civilians. The majority of deaths appear to have been within Kosovo itself; there were up to 5,000 military casualties according to NATO estimates, while the Serbian figure is around 1,000. The exact number of Albanian civilians killed is unclear. Some mass graves were also found in Serbia itself, on Yugoslav military bases or dumped in the Danube. The total number of Albanian dead is generally claimed to be around 10,000 although several foreign forensic teams were unable to verify the exact amount [16] (PDF). One explanation is that some of the largest mass graves were cleared before the war's end in an apparent effort to obliterate potential war crimes evidence. The largest mass grave so far found is in Dragodan, an Albanian suburb of Priština. Those bodies so far identified are of Gypsies and Albanians, some, or possibly all, of whom were alive when NATO moved in.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War

    As you see, even the wildly inflated Serb estimates of Serbian casualties come to about half of the Kosovar civilian deaths.

    But you already knew that, didn't you.
     
  20. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    More aid for torrorists, Clinton style.


    http://www.deltax.net/bissett/a-tragicblunder.htm

    THE TRAGIC BLUNDER IN KOSOVO

    For Globe and Mail, January 10, 2000.

    The bombing of Yugoslavia in the closing days of the 20th century has raised disturbing and unresolved issues about international security that must be addressed. Hailed as a victory for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the bombing, on closer analysis, can be seen as an unmitigated failure with far-reaching implications for world peace. Canada must demand more of its political leaders before they lead us into another war.

    SNIP

    Our political leaders and much of the media have said that the bombing of Yugoslavia was launched to stop ethnic cleansing and atrocities. This is a myth. All the evidence shows that there were approximately 2,000 casualties in Kosovo up to the time of the NATO bombing -- by any standard, not an extraordinary number considering that a civil war had been raging since 1993. By contrast, the number of Yugoslavian civilians killed by the NATO bombing is reckoned to be well above 2,000.

    SNIP

    Following a UN resolution, the Yugoslav government in November, 1998, allowed 1,300 Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) observers into Kosovo in an attempt to monitor and de-escalate the fighting. As far as I know the official OSCE report was never published. Had it been, we could verify the allegations that ethnic cleansing and atrocities were serious enough to warrant military intervention. The failure to publish the report strongly suggests that the alleged repression in Kosovo did not justify intervention.


    Moreover, a number of credible OSCE observers have publicly stated that in the weeks leading up to the bombing they witnessed no murders, no deportations and nothing that could be described as systematic persecution. One of these observers, the former Czech foreign minister, Jiri Dienstbier, has further testified that NATO was fully aware that bombing would force the Serbs to expel Kosovar Albanians as a military tactic. Yet our political leaders continue to tell us the bombing was designed to prevent -- not cause -- ethnic cleansing.
     
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