Closed Baptism

[convicted1]

convicted1

Do you mean to say that the Old Regular Baptists do not baptize those coming from another denomination, Baptist or not?

If I felt the need to join a Church other than Southern Baptists and they wanted to Baptize me again I would say go ahead!

Brother OR,


It's still our practice to re-baptize anyone who has not been baptized by anyone who hasn't been baptized by ORB ministers. I am in the minority, I reckon.

 

[OldRegular]

Brother OR,


It's still our practice to re-baptize anyone who has not been baptized by anyone who hasn't been baptized by ORB ministers. I am in the minority, I reckon.

I reckon!:tongue3::love2: But I favor the ORB practice. If I were to ask for membership in an Old Regular Baptist Church I would welcome baptism again!

 

[gb93433]

Why are there more obstacles placed in front of people to get into a membership of a local church than there are to get into Heaven...

That is the nature of an organization as it grows. People who were once viewed as being a leader now are ignoreed simply because the organization is older and too often devleops an attitude of "we are better."

And we wonder why today's generation is wanting to have nothing to do with church membership...
It's because Us Pharisees have created so many hoops people have to jump through... especially since church membership is not even spoken of in the BIBLE!

Young people have seen the lack of loyalty in the workplace among employers and so they see nothing in that like the older people did. They are no longer loyal to anything that is just an organization. They are no longer loyal to a name or brand. They are looking for churches filled with real Christians not just church goers that warm a seat.

One of the largest churches in the city where I live has a 2 hr. service. The pastor is a straight talker and is a man's man. People find people with real hurts and real joy.

 

[OldRegular]

They are no longer loyal to anything that is just an organization.

The Church is not just an organization, Jesus Christ died for it.

Acts 20:28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

And obviously the Apostle Paul is speaking of the local Body of Christ here!

They are no longer loyal to a name or brand. They are looking for churches filled with real Christians not just church goers that warm a seat.

Sounds like someone on this Forum and his "carnal Christians"!

 

[saturneptune]

The Church is not just an organization, Jesus Christ died for it.

Acts 20:28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

And obviously the Apostle Paul is speaking of the local Body of Christ here!



Sounds like someone on this Forum and his "carnal Christians"!

OR, don't pass out but I agree with you on this point. I strongly believe in the local church and autonomy. I do not want any hierarchy other than the Lord telling our church how to run its business. I believe in loyality to a local church where the Lord has lead. There was a thread the other day on church hopping, which I do not agree with. The reason I would not belong to a denomination with a hierarchy is that the ones in charge have no more ability to run a local church well than the local church itself. Having come from a Presbyterian church while growing up, more often than not elders and presbyters are elected on the basis of social status and not spiritual maturity.

As far as qualifications to become a member and how communion is administerd, or how baptism is handled, that is up to the local church. If one disagrees with their policy, then another church should be searched for.

 

[gb93433]

The Church is not just an organization, Jesus Christ died for it.

The church founded by Anton LeVey too? The church of Jesus Christ is commanded to make disciples etc. That is a living church not just an organization run by man. It is amazing what happens when you empower people to do ministry. God works in and through them in many ways that we could not dream of but what God gives. Ministry is not limited to me and what I think.

Acts 20:28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Check again. Paul addressed the overseers from congregations not the local church. He is pointing out among some things that the Holy Spirit has made them the overseers. It is the Holy Spirit who makes us the overseer. We do not make God the overseer.

So much nonsense about Phil 1:6 has been preached. That verse is among a prayer and Paul gives the reason why he is confident in verse 7, "For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me."

 

[gb93433]

I strongly believe in the local church and autonomy. I do not want any hierarchy other than the Lord telling our church how to run its business. I believe in loyalty to a local church where the Lord has lead.

I learned many things in seminary from expereinced pastors and scholars that I did not learn from the pastor in the local church. Those professors were teaching current and future pastors. I know from experience that it is no fun following a pastor who is ignorant about the Bible and taught some of that. In some cases it was so obvious. The people began to question what was taught and what I taught because at times it conflicted.

The reason I would not belong to a denomination with a hierarchy is that the ones in charge have no more ability to run a local church well than the local church itself.

What would you do if you were in leadership in a denomination that had no accountability and you had knowledge about a local church who invited the Mormon bishop to come and teach each year?

I have a friend who was a missionary in Ethiopia who had leadership among the pastors who were in essence pastors of pastors. If one of the pastors had trouble in a local church or the pastor was the problem those leaders would come to a local church for up to three days and meet with that church to help solve and correct its problems. It seems that so many in America are willinng to let a chruch struggle and go astray and possibly die. When I look at scripture I see Paul dealing with churches in error or encouragement in which he is not the local pastor.

Having come from a Presbyterian church while growing up, more often than not elders and presbyters are elected on the basis of social status and not spiritual maturity.

That happens everywhere not just in that particular denomination. I personally know a Presbyterian pastor and that would be highly unlikely in the church he pastors. I have also seen what you describe happen in churches where a person is nominated by the nominating committee just because he is a warm body.

As far as qualifications to become a member and how communion is administered, or how baptism is handled, that is up to the local church. If one disagrees with their policy, then another church should be searched for.

A few years ago a Lutheran pastor was my neighbor. We did a lot of things together. I knew he was evangelistic and sought to follow scripture. He told me that he always translated the texts he spoke from. So after I got to know him I asked him about how he dealt with baptism in his translation of the NT. At first he told me about how Lutherans taught it. When I asked him about how the word was used in society and in the Bible he told me he would have to study it more. One day we were doing something and he told me that in a few days he was going to baptize some new believers by immersion. Our discussion reached him.

It is not about letting a person reside in their error but about gentle correction and helping the person to grow as Gal 6:12 teaches. We are to be that one who is like the iron that sharpens iron. If the person refuses to listen then that is a different issue.

 

[OldRegular]

As far as qualifications to become a member and how communion is administerd, or how baptism is handled, that is up to the local church. If one disagrees with their policy, then another church should be searched for.

I agree wholeheartedly.:godisgood:

 

[gb93433]

I agree wholeheartedly.

In America there are churches that fellowship in sound denominations and invite cult members to speak and the denomination says absolutely nothing in the defense of autonomous churches. So in essence they let false practices continue. In one chruch I pastored were two leaders on the state church growth board and not one person said anything to the church about a practice of inviting the Mormon bishop to come and teach once a year. When I came against the practice one of those on the church growth board said in a deacon's meeting, "He is a Christian." I was shocked and was almost speechless.

 

[OldRegular]

The Church is not just an organization, Jesus Christ died for it.

Acts 20:28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Response by gb93433
The church founded by Anton LeVey too?

Never heard of Anton LeVey. Did he die for something? Jesus Christ founded the Church and died for it!

Acts 20:28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

And obviously the Apostle Paul is speaking of the local Body of Christ here!

Response by gb93433
Check again. Paul addressed the overseers from congregations not the local church. He is pointing out among some things that the Holy Spirit has made them the overseers. It is the Holy Spirit who makes us the overseer. We do not make God the overseer.

I don't understand your point. I simply said that when Paul told the elders of the Church at Ephesus [verse 20:17] Jesus Christ died for the Church and instructed them to feed the church of God he was speaking of the local Body of Christ, the local Church.

Check again! I did not say Paul addressed the local the local Body of Christ. I stated that Paul was speaking of the local Body of Christ, the local Church.

Furthermore, I said nothing indicating that we

make God the overseer.

Also the verse I presented is quite clear that the "Holy Ghost", or Holy Spirit, is responsible for making overseers of the Church.

 

[gb93433]

Never heard of Anton LaVey. Did he die for something? Jesus Christ founded the Church and died for it!

Founder of the church of Satan. He did die though but not for anyone.

I don't understand your point. I simply said that when Paul told the elders of the Church at Ephesus [verse 20:17] Jesus Christ died for the Church and instructed them to feed the church of God he was speaking of the local Body of Christ, the local Church.

Acts 20:17-38 was Paul's farewell address. In that address he mentioned several things but if you take a lok at vss. 28-31 Paul warns them about the wolves and mentions their responsibility which was give to them by the Holy Spirit. The problem today is that so many seem relegate that responsibility to God. The responsibility to make disciples is other not God or the Holy Spirit but those whop oversee the new or immature believer.

quote]Check again! I did not say Paul addressed the local the local Body of Christ. I stated that Paul was speaking of the local Body of Christ, the local Church.[/quote] I agree.

Furthermore, I said nothing indicating that we Also the verse I presented is quite clear that the "Holy Ghost", or Holy Spirit, is responsible for making overseers of the Church.

I never said that you said that either.

 

[gb93433]

It's still our practice to re-baptize anyone who has not been baptized by anyone who hasn't been baptized by ORB ministers. I am in the minority, I reckon.

I am unable to find that baptism was ever for membership in a particular Christian church but rather confessing Christ as Lord and indentifying with Him.

 

[DaChaser1]

I looked at the doctrinal statement of the E-Free Church of America, and found it generally to be sound. Side issues are another story. One critic said the E-Free church dabbles in faith healing and some New Agey stuff.

Can you fill us in about that ?

Based on the doctrinal statement I read, I could accept E-Free folks as members of my church.
But I'd need to know more about the other stuff.

used to attend one for 3 years, in between my assemblies of God to baptsit days!

From what i remember on thier statement of beliefs, they would be classifed by us as being 'baptist like", with them being general on theolgy, NOT specifically saying Cal/Arm, or if pre trib/post trib etc!

their seminary is trinity evangelical, and they have general statement there, as NOT required to be either Cal/arm, post trib/pre etc!

 

[mont974x4]

I am unable to find that baptism was ever for membership in a particular Christian church but rather confessing Christ as Lord and indentifying with Him.

You are spot on. :thumbs:

 

[saturneptune]

In America there are churches that fellowship in sound denominations and invite cult members to speak and the denomination says absolutely nothing in the defense of autonomous churches. So in essence they let false practices continue. In one chruch I pastored were two leaders on the state church growth board and not one person said anything to the church about a practice of inviting the Mormon bishop to come and teach once a year. When I came against the practice one of those on the church growth board said in a deacon's meeting, "He is a Christian." I was shocked and was almost speechless.

As far as the knowledge of a local church pastor compared to a denomination type situation, and also the accountibility, it is the repsonsibility of the local church to call a pastoral candidate. The local church can use whatever procedure it wishes, oral exam, trial sermons, questioning by the deacons or congregation etc. If the church just picks a warm body as you put it, then they reap what they sow. What I am not understanding is why you think a hierarchy would better serve making a pastor more accountable or knowledgable than a local congreagation.

I completely agree with your point about the Mormon bishop. I would not let one near our church. Mormonism is about the last cult that would enter our building because of how they view Jesus Christ. They are evil, dangerous, and basically like an infection. I will take it further. There is no way I would vote for one, which seems to be pretty important this year.

I thought your story about the Lutheran minister and baptism was very revealing. Thanks for the post.

 

[Phillip]

There are not many cases where a local pastor would be baptizing someone not from his church. The only real exception I can think of would be chaplains in the military for special circumstances.

I do not believe anyone needs to be re-baptized if they have been baptized in a church that is similar to yours. For example, if a Roman Catholic that gets saved then I would dunk him. If someone from another protestant church joined my church then I would see no need to redunk him.

I also encourage parents to baptize their kids. I have also asked close friends who may have played a huge role in someones salvation to perform the rite.


Oh, and I practice open Communion. 1 Cor 11 says to examine yourself, not submit to an examination by an elder or deacon.

Please be careful when you encourage parents to baptize their kids and make certain the kids are saved. I am one of those kids who was saved at 9 years old because my mother told me she thought God was dealing with me and we were having a revival..so I went down and don't remember anything after that besides listening to a preacher ramble to me. This caused a lot of heart-ache, lost time being saved when I started questionining whether or not I had really accepted Jesus. Don't get me wrong. My mother was one of the best Christians I know but she just wanted me saved so bad she pushed me into it before I was ready. Yes, if you believe the child is saved then absolutely; but you will likely see an actual change in the child's attitude toward church and worldly issues. Without any change, ask yourself if the child has truly turned repented and made Jesus the center of their life.

 

[mont974x4]

I was saved at 5, and baptized a few years later. I rebelled hard in my late teens to late 20's. There was a lot of heartache to be sure, but I was saved.

We make baptism into a class and checklist. The Scriptures only indicate that a confession of faith is all that is necessary.

Act 8:36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
Act 8:37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]
Act 8:38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. (NASB)


It seems your issue was not really with baptism, but salvation. There is a real danger in preaching a gutless gospel (for example, just telling kids they should want to go to Heaven) that does not fully address the sin problem, who Christ is, why we need Him, the cost of following Him, and what it means to be in Christ.

 

[Phillip]

I was saved at 5, and baptized a few years later. I rebelled hard in my late teens to late 20's. There was a lot of heartache to be sure, but I was saved.

We make baptism into a class and checklist. The Scriptures only indicate that a confession of faith is all that is necessary.

Act 8:36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
Act 8:37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]
Act 8:38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. (NASB)


It seems your issue was not really with baptism, but salvation. There is a real danger in preaching a gutless gospel (for example, just telling kids they should want to go to Heaven) that does not fully address the sin problem, who Christ is, why we need Him, the cost of following Him, and what it means to be in Christ.

You are correct, partially, but when you are that young it is often the Baptism the kids remember and they don't seem to get it through their heads they aren't saved--why of course, I was baptized I had to be saved.

This occurs and sadly a lot of kids will rebel and NOT come back and correct their salvation. Since you were saved then it was not an issue, but I always remembered thinking about the baptism as a child and assuming I did it right and then go and read a comic book.

 

[OldRegular]

What I am not understanding is why you think a hierarchy would better serve making a pastor more accountable or knowledgable than a local congregation.

I believe that the hierarchal denominations have departed much more from the faith which was once delivered unto the saints than those without the denominational hierarchy. Liberals gain control of the denominational leadership and soon the denomination has homosexual bishops, embraces abortion, etc.

 

[saturneptune]

I believe that the hierarchal denominations have departed much more from the faith which was once delivered unto the saints than those without the denominational hierarchy. Liberals gain control of the denominational leadership and soon the denomination has homosexual bishops, embraces abortion, etc.

That is three times we have agreed. The end of days must be near. LOL I grew up in a Presbyterian Church. Today it is called the PCA. I remember very clearly the vast majority of the elders being arrogant, and most were well to do. I can also remember the Presbytery interfering in areas such as issues with the building, calling a pastor, dismissing a pastor, discipline of members or officers, and the like. The Presbytery would even stick their nose in order of worship, utility bills, and if they deemed necessary, who was put up as candidates for church offices. The congregation voted on very controlled issues. The elders and/or the Presbytery controlled the rest.

I find our local Baptist Church can do all the same functions without the arrogance, and we control our own destiny. The only hierarchy we have is the Lord. Our deacons (Brother Tom is chairman) are very spiritual men, and were elected on the basis of spiritual qualities. Our pastors have been examined and reexamined. Since I have been there, all have had at least Bachelor Degrees, some Masters, and two with Doctorates. Tom and usually our pastor are very good with the Hebrew and Greek. I know each pastor personally, and Brother Tom especially (better than he thinks I do), and they match at least and probably exceed all the elders and Presbyters I knew in spiritual maturity and knowledge.

Tom and I do not always agree, as he is a big advocate of the Universal Church, while I am the champion of the local church. As you all know, I also try and explain to him the finer points of closed communion, but he insists on open.

All kidding aside, I cannot vouch that all local churches are as blessed as ours, but we handle our issues in a unified and loving manner.