Collapse Of WTC Buildings (Just the facts)

Did they make train noises? woowoo..chuffa chuffa

 

I certainly do appreciate what you said, NiteShift, but its just a job like any other. You still go home when the day is over.

I always liked the Bug Bunny cartoon where he was sitting on a production line at the end of the show and bombs were rolling by and he would close his eyes and hit each one with a hammer and then write "dud" on it. He said, "the pay wasn't great, but the retirement was super."

 

In his case, retirement most likely being a quick trip to heaven!

 

Multi-story building collapse (in North America) due to fire since 1970 -

In summary, a total of 22 cases from 1970-2002 are presented in Table 1, with 15 from the US and two from Canada. The number of fire-induced collapse events can be categorized by building construction material as follows:
•Concrete: 7
•Structural steel: 6
•Brick/masonry: 5
•Unknown: 2
•Wood: 2
Three of these events were from the 1970’s, three were from the 1980’s, four were from the 1990’s, and twelve occurred in 2000 and beyond.

Source -
Multi-story collapse due to fire

 

“In terms of structural system the twin towers departed completely from other high-rise buildings. Conventional skyscrapers since the 19th century had been built with a skeleton of interior supporting columns that supports the structure. Exterior walls of glass steel or synthetic material do not carry any load. The Twin towers are radically different in structural design as the exterior wall is used as the load-bearing wall... The most noticeable change in the modern high-rise construction is a trend to using more steel and shaping lightweight steel into tubes, curves, and angles to increase its load bearing capability. The WTC has tubular steel bearing walls, fluted corrugated steel flooring and bent bar steel truss floor supports. To a modern high rise building designer steel framing is economical and concrete is a costly material….Lightweight construction means economy. It means building more with less. If you reduce the structure’s mass you can build cheaper and build higher. Unfortunately unprotected steel warps, melts, sags and collapses when heated to normal fire temperatures about 1100 to 1200 degrees F….A plane that only weighted 10 tons struck the Empire State Building and the high-octane gasoline fire quickly flamed out after 35 minutes. When the firefighters walked up to the 79 floor most of the fire had dissipated. The Empire State Building in my opinion, and most fire chiefs in New York City, is the most fire safe building in America. I believe it would have not collapsed like the WTC towers. I believe the Empire State Building, and for that matter any other skeleton steel building in New York City, would have withstood the impact and fire of the terrorist’s jet plane better than the WTC towers. If the jet liners struck any other skeleton steel high rise, the people on the upper floors and where the jet crashed may not have survived; there might have been local floor and exterior wall collapse. However, I believe a skeleton steel frame high rise would not suffer a cascading total pancake collapse of the floors in 8 and 10 seconds..”

Source -
vincent dunn.com

 

Thanks for the lesson in footnotes.

A funny thing about your examples; several of them are dead links, some of them do not support your position in any way, and the rest are just references to the conspiricy sites, a form of circular logic.

But thanks again

 

How do you know the bin Laden family is the "wrong people?" There is an old saying that blood is thicker than water. Bu$ine$$ dealings are thickest of all. At any rate, there wasn't enough time to do a complete investigation of whether or not the bin Laden family had any connections to OBL - sorry, I can't just dismiss this as insignificant. And it has been proven over and over again that the greatest funding of worldwide terrorism comes from Saudi Arabia.

Well, that is a jump to a conclusion. There are millions of newspaper and other links that are taken down as a matter of practice after a certain length of time, to decrease use of bandwidth on servers, for one reason. Of course, there are politically incorrect links that are removed, as well. And finally, there are some that are removed because the government takes them down. So, your assumption that any particular link becomes dead because it contained errors is, well, erroneous.

 

How do you know the bin Laden family is the "wrong people?" There is an old saying that blood is thicker than water. </font>[/QUOTE]That’s an old saying, but it is not necessarily true. There are many examples of family members turning each other in to authorities when they have committed crimes. (i.e., Ted Kaczynski’s brother alerted police that his brother might be the Unabomber.)

Osama bin Laden is not running a business, so it is unlikely that the rest of his family could possible profit from him. If anything, it hurts them financially.

You are conveniently ignoring that our government has known about OBL for years, has tried to kill him on multiple occasions, and I’m sure, thoroughly investigated any possible connections between him and his family long before 9/11. It would not surprise me at all if OBL’s family in the United States has had all of their communication monitored for years by the NSA.

Your claim that “there wasn’t enough time” does not line up with the facts.

It is less than insignificant… it is a false premise.

Which means what? That all Saudis fund terrorism?

There are plenty of Saudis that fund and support terrorism. There are also plenty of Saudis that do not fund terrorism, and loathe those that do.

The U.S. government had YEARS to investigate OBL’s family here in the United States for possible ties and support before 9/11, and they did not find any.

 

Is that anything like saying that "it has been proven that blacks commit x number of crimes" and then leading to the following conclusion that we should treat them all as criminals?

 

I'll respond to the parts that might make send, but the last stuff is unpatriotic and conspiracy theory at its best.

First, let me say that this is the way YOU and some OTHER people list their sources. NiteShift may list his another way. Its whatever your teachers taught you and just because they taught you that way never made it right. Its just a "procedure" and procedures can be changed and even eliminated if unnecessary. The list you gave means NOTHING. It is interspirsed with conspiracy sites and the like.

Posting a bunch of sources at the bottom just make your article or book look like you referred to a bunch of sources, but in reality you may have just referred to it and it might not even agree with you. But, listing that source anyway, makes people think they back your theory; which is NOT very accurate.....THAT is why I take long lists of sources with a grain of salt.

Look at Jana Davis' book on OKC bombing. Got LOTS of sources, very little intelligence.

a) A foreign power has hijacked our government.
Well, its our government, its a republic, so it is of the people and by the people. You certainly have YOUR vote. Where were you when the majority voted last time? All presidents go up and down, up and down in popularity and sadly based on economic conditions often set into play by other politicians years ago. Surprisingly, (unless you haven't studied government) our president doesn't have all that much power. He can be overriden by the checks and balances in place in Congress. Have you NOT studied your government assignment for the week?

C) I obviously forgot B in scrolling so rather than edit this thing let's continue.....NO I do usually do not listen to conspiracy theory sites because I have OFFICIAL channels and experts that I listen to and I don't need someone from the outside trying to tell me what I already know.

Besides, 9/10 of their stuff is bologna. I even went through a couple of analysis in these threads and you obviously couldn't refute my facts because you just skimmed right over it. Just keep posting those lists of references, Poncho.


D) Already explained in C.

E) Not unless that professor has a government security clearance, and you don't get one of those unless you are active in government research or work. That physics teacher can theorise all day long, but he will never even see the data from a MOAB blast (I'm using this for an example only) unless he or she is contracted by the government to study that data, which does happen in high level colleges. BUT--those people don't write articles about it. Or they quickly loose their clearances. Don't act like you are dumb, Poncho, when you can obviously read this stuff.

E/F) You take a grain of truth and make it ridiculous. Does business have influence in the economy and the shape of our politics? Absolutely, I wouldn't have it any other way. Those businesses pay your salary, unless you are living off the tax dollars of other people's salaries paid by those taxes. So ultimately, whether you are in the government or in private industry, the industrial complex pays your salary.

The rest of your speech is nothing but a miss-mash of half-truths and half-conspiracy theory.

Oh, about my experience and education. If you wish to say I deal off the bottom of the deck, you might as well just continue to make accusations....bottom line, I was being pushed on why I wouldn't supply so many sources, so I gave my background. It stands for those missing sources.

If you think I am bragging, I will certainly let you come here and do my job for a few weeks.

That is, if you can pass the security clearance and gain some quick experience and technology that you won't get at secular colleges.

I need the rest.

 

One final thing, Poncho, this thread was opened by you (I believe) to just discuss FACTS of the crash that are available to us.

I posted pages and pages of how the facts appear to experts in the field. All you do is throw out a bunch of articles that are full of half-truths and outright lies.

Why don't you read my posts and rebut them like we do in debates? Not rebut my responses when I'm getting tired of your tyrades about me and my methods.

 

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/011112fa_FACT3

 

Just today on Fox News, they reported that an autopsy was done on one of the people who were at the WTC helping the 09/11 victims and disaster. He died of toxic fumes from Ground Zero, but our government told us there were no toxic fumes. Anyone with any common sense would know that fumes from all the debris and jet fuel, etc., would have been toxic. Yet our government went on record telling us that the area was not toxic. You will call it a mistake, no doubt. I call it a lie.

 

Furthermore, some of you can list reams and reams of post about all your expertise until the cows come home because you still believe in your government and believe your government is a reflection of you and your values and can call all of those who question what the government does as conspiracy nuts or whatever. It makes no difference to me. I believe the US government is corrupt and covers up things which have nothing to do with the best interest of the people they are supposed to be serving, but have everything to do with how they can line their own pockets and make things profitable for themselves. Some of you even go so far as to say the government is us and a reflection of us. Well I disagree. That was the old days. That was how it is supposed to work, but those days are long gone and have been gone for quite awhile. I can think of only a handful of people at the upper levels of the US government who might just possibly hold some of the values that I personally hold dear. The US government does not represent me nor does it represent my ideals or any Christian values at all - AND the present government we have is not a reflection of me or what a cherish or the US Constitution, either for that matter. There is nothing you could ever say to convince me that the US government is not corrupt and has always worked in the best interests of the American people which is what it is supposed to do. History and current events prove otherwise. I'm only thankful there are still a few people around who don't accept everything that ANY government tells them at face value, especially when there are enough questions raised that have no plausible explanation. I'm not a sheeple, not yet.

 

If you believe this then I suggest that you should never fly in another aircraft, go up in aanother tall building, drive another car, or go over another bridge because that's how things are designed. There was a good reason why the WTC buildings came down but it's not necessarily because the architects and engineers failed to design it correctly. If you can prove that that's what happened I'll accept it. Until now the evidence points elsewhere.

The fact is that the WTC towers were designed to withstand the impact of an aircraft of about the same size and weight which presumably carried aircraft fuel. What was the unforseen circumstance?

 

If you think the United States government is so bad, then why don't you quickly pack your bags and move to Iran where they also hate the United States government. Maybe you would like it there better.

 

If you believe this then I suggest that you should never fly in another aircraft, go up in aanother tall building, drive another car, or go over another bridge because that's how things are designed. There was a good reason why the WTC buildings came down but it's not necessarily because the architects and engineers failed to design it correctly. If you can prove that that's what happened I'll accept it. Until now the evidence points elsewhere.

The fact is that the WTC towers were designed to withstand the impact of an aircraft of about the same size and weight which presumably carried aircraft fuel. What was the unforseen circumstance? </font>[/QUOTE]Engineers often fail. First, why don't you provide us with some information (not from a conspiracy site) where the designers provided information that the towers were designed to withstand a HUGE airliner flying through the windows? Goodness!

Obviously, if they did design it to that specification, they failed. But then, like you said, engineers don't fail do they?

 

What has this got to do with the Thread?

NOW, this is REALLY getting ridiculous. Have you EVER worked for the military at all? Ed can tell you that ALL "secured" buildings will not allow photos if they can help it. My goodness, this is basic SOP. Have you even heard of OPSEC? </font>[/QUOTE]Those security cameras had been operating for years with no issues. No, I've never worked for the military. My Christian beliefs led me to avoid sitting around trying to maximize "kill ratio's" all day long.

Aren't you the guy who on another thread claimed to be an "expert" in cellular communications. Here you're claiming to be an expert on building fires and demolition. I believe you claimed you knew a top official at NASA who overseed the Shuttle program and who could verify whether or not I worked on it. Go ahead. Then you questioned the qualifications of a real expert on building fires because "you had never heard of him."

What exactly do you really know ANYTHING about? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I explained this THREE times, I started as an electronic engineer for a defense contractor, worked my way up to Director of Engineering where I was in charge of all engineering functions and specialized in high-tech secure wireless communications. You know, digital, frequency-hopping, spread-spectrum and all the other techniques used in cellular phones? Then our company was purchased by a much larger company and I was rehired by the new group as Director of Engineering where we worked on cellular systems, medical systems and continued our contracts building equipment, most of which I can't tell you about for the Defense Department and foreign military sales. I was project Program Manager for Egypt's ground-to-air networking, data and encyrypted voice communictions system (that one I can talk about because it isn't our government). I can say that I personally designed several radio frequency boxes that are in the Tomahawk and Air Force's ALCM.

I then worked as a consultant for about five years or so then went to work the group that handles all technology for Explosive's safety including training all of the explosive's specialists in our school. I just happen to work in the engineering department for ordinance and equipment that I'm not going into any further.

I've been around the block and back and I can tell you that there are few issues being discussed here that I cannot stay right on top of. Since our first company was involved in air-craft to ground communications, I have been involved of MANY tests and developments in the field. Since working for the government I have not only taken every course offered by our school, but have been directly involved in the ordinance production. I have an inert MOAB sitting a little over 100 feet from my desk. Along with a lot of other stuff.

Besides a security clearance, I'm also a Lean Six Sigma Green Belt.

Now, everybody who reads this, I want you to relialize what is happening here. Notice that it was STRAIGHTANDNARROW who questioined by qualifications. So, don't be whining that all I do is brag on my experiences, even though I've been challenged on these issues about I am simply having to explain this to you, yet again. Would you please read my posts so that I don't have to do this again.

By the way, you never once responded to my LONG posts describing cellular technology and why it would work from 5000 feet plus, so don't go hit and run trying to make me look like I don't know what I'm talking about.

Finally, your remark about you wouldn't be a soldier because of the mentality of sitting around thinking about kill ratios is an insult to the people who submit their lives voluntarily to guard you little back-side while people like you complain about your government.

I can guarantee you, that if it wasn't for the military, you would have seen terrorism since 9/11 in this country that has never been seen before.

I have posted rebuttals to your "experts" providing you with actual information and asking for data from you and you don't produce. Yes, I'm a little mad about this last post and your audacity to accuse me of not being qualified to make the statements I make, and then make statements about how our soldiers are killers. They are your body-guards, like I told someone else believing the same way you do. Why don't you pack your bags and move to Iran, they need some good Engineers to help them out. I'm sure you would be happier there since you are so miserable with our government. Again......MERCY!!!!

Appologies to those who want real discussions and data and not here just spreading conspiracy theories or badmouthing our government because it is the "hip" thing to do.

I have little regard for those who hate the government so bad and I wish them luck when they travel to Iran.

 

Well, here we are at page ten. I'll see if we can leave this thread open. I thought some of you wanted to talk about what was seen and what happened. From what I see most of the time has been spent accusing people of bragging when they do provide real information and very little posting discussions about how the buildings were build, how they responded etc.

If this cannot get back to discussing the facts, we'll just shut it down.

Obviously conspiracy theory folks would rather keep saying that they don't trust the government, post links to conspiracy theory sites and provide ZILCH in the way of data.

Its fun to talk about Elvis being alive, another issue to prove it.