-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Colossians 2;12.
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
Dave G
Well-Known Member
" buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
Faith...
Here the believer is told that it is "of" ( from ) the operation of God.
Just as faith is the gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 ) and is "of" the Son of God ( Galatians 2:20 ) who is the Author and Finisher of it ( Hebrews 12:2 ) , so it is also of the operation of God.
The believer's faith begins with God's operation, not our "operation".
God's people contribute nothing for their salvation, and never did.
Their faith is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1) of their salvation, not a condition to be met in order for God to then grant them eternal life.
"...Not of works, lest any man should boast". ( Ephesians 2:9 ).
Faith...
Here the believer is told that it is "of" ( from ) the operation of God.
Just as faith is the gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 ) and is "of" the Son of God ( Galatians 2:20 ) who is the Author and Finisher of it ( Hebrews 12:2 ) , so it is also of the operation of God.
The believer's faith begins with God's operation, not our "operation".
God's people contribute nothing for their salvation, and never did.
Their faith is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1) of their salvation, not a condition to be met in order for God to then grant them eternal life.
"...Not of works, lest any man should boast". ( Ephesians 2:9 ).
Last edited:
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
The pardon of sin is received by faith, whereby the soul is really made partaker of it. That's from Owen, and you can see how then you might say that you are by faith receiving something already done for you rather than the view that Flowers has. Flowers calls himself a Provisionist and tends to teach that God has provided the things necessary for salvation and then it is up to us to make use of the provisions provided.
Owen says regarding the order of faith and regeneration, "I place these two together, and shall not dispute as to their priority in nature, but in time the one doth not precede the other."
So it seems to me that the real difference here is whether you look at this as God having provided what he deems needed for salvation, being then moved to save those in whom he finds faith, or is God more active in saving people and having a plan using means to effect the salvation of those who are eventually saved.
Owen says regarding the order of faith and regeneration, "I place these two together, and shall not dispute as to their priority in nature, but in time the one doth not precede the other."
So it seems to me that the real difference here is whether you look at this as God having provided what he deems needed for salvation, being then moved to save those in whom he finds faith, or is God more active in saving people and having a plan using means to effect the salvation of those who are eventually saved.
37818
Well-Known Member
Is a falsehood. Because the gift of God taught in Ephesians 2:8 is having been saved.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Where does faith come from in the Col 2:12 passage and what role does it play in the salvation of a person ?
37818
Well-Known Member
. . . of the operation of God.
It's YOUR faith, YOUR choice, YOUR decision....you have to keep those 'bragging rights', don't you. Free-willers are all the same.
37818
Well-Known Member
It seems you do not understand Biblical faith. Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
It seems that you do not understand that Biblical faith is not an act of the creature, it is the gift of God. Matthew 16:17
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
It never fails, you always evasive, even when you start a thread
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
You do have a point there. Does anyone know of a scripture passage where faith itself is described as a work? It seems it is always contrasted to works.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
Then, I will dispute it. They may, for all the World, appear and seem to chronologically happen at the same time, but so does the light bulb in your house seem to instentaneously and symultaneously come on and light up the room, at the very exact same second and moment when you flict the switch.
But, which happened before the other one, logically?
The light certainly turned right on at the very same split second you flicked the switch, but just as in the accomplishment of Salvation in the soul, it was;
(Ephesians 2:1, shown in a different order)
"you,...who were dead in trespasses and sins", like the light bulb when it is turned off, just sitting in the socket, then
THE SWITCH LOGICALLY IS SWITCHED, FIRST, AND
"hath He Quickened", you to Eternal Life, like the light when comes on and is shining brightly.
According to Time, it really is God Who Flicks the Switch in our experience of Salvation, first too, it just seems like it could have happened simultaneously in a way, but rest Assured, LOGICALLY, GOD TOOK THE INITIATIVE TO QUICKEN OUR DEAD SOUL, FIRST, OBVIOUSLY, HANDS DOWN = JUST LIKE HE HAD PLANNED TO DO AND SET US UP FOR IT, FROM ETERNITY PAST = ALL THE GLORY AND PRAISE GO TO HIS HOLY NAME!!!!
That might be the bright idea of some fallen, sin-cursed, reasoning using a mind afflicted by the Fall of Adam, unenlightened by the Holy Spirit, from The Bible, but you`ll search the World over and it can`t be found when all of the Scriptures with regard to Salvation are referenced and compared, for there to be no contridictions
I think that you are onto God`s Revealed Eternal Plan of Salvation in The Bible, there, the Way God Saves souls and not the way man might have come up with that he thinks God Saves souls.
And so, the entire phrase, " by grace are you saved, through faith ..." has to somehow not be all together "the gift of God"?
You can separate "faith" from "saved" in that clause and make "saved" "The gift of God" and "faith", what? dependent on the fickle follies of a lost man`s whim to generate the "faith" part of God`s Grace in The Salvation of a soul? Or for that lost soul to not have "faith"?
"For by grace are ye saved, that is a gift from God, through faith, that is not of yourself? too, or faith is of yourself?
You're saying God gives the gift of salvation, but He doesn`t give the gift of faith.....???
So, if it comes from the man and the man doesn`t have it, there is no Salvation, regardless of God`s grace?
I`m going to take a pass on believing that kind of stuff, thank you very much.
The same Quickening Spirit and Almighty Power of God was Exercised by God when He Insrealed Faith in our soul, as the Quickening Spirit and Almighty Power He Used to Raise Jesus zchrist from the dead.
That is what that verse is all about.
Colossians 2:12
"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him
through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
"Buried with him in baptism,.... The apostle goes on to observe how complete and perfect the saints are in Christ; that they are not only circumcised in him in a spiritual sense, and the body of the sins of their flesh is put off, and removed from them, in allusion to the cutting off and casting away of the foreskin in circumcision;
"But that they and all their sins were buried with Christ, of which their baptism in water was a lively representation: Christ having died for their sins, was laid in the grave, where he continued for a while, and then rose again;
"and as they were crucified with him, they were also buried with him, as their head and representative; and all their sins too, which he left behind him in the grave, signified by his grave clothes there; and baptism being performed by immersion, when the person baptized is covered with water, and as it were buried in it, is a very significant emblem of all this;
"It is a representation of the burial of Christ, and very fitly holds him forth to the view of faith in the state of the dead, in the grave, and points out the place where the Lord lay; and it is also a representation of our burial with him, as being dead to sin, to the law, and to the world, by him. This shows now, that baptism was performed by dipping, or covering the whole body in water, for no other form of administration of baptism, as sprinkling, or pouring water on the face, can represent a burial, or be called one; and this is what many learned interpreters own, and observe on this place:
"wherein also ye are risen with him; Christ is risen from the dead as the head and representative of his people, and they are risen with him; and their baptism is also an emblem of his and their resurrection, being administered by immersion, in which way only this can be signified; for as the going down into the water, and being under it, represents Christ's descending into the state of the dead, and his continuance in it, so the emersion, or coming up out of the water, represents his rising from the dead, and that of his people in him, in order to walk in newness of life; for the apostle's meaning is, that in baptism saints are risen with Christ, as well as in it buried with him: and this
"through the faith of the operation of God; that is, it is through faith that saints see themselves buried and risen with Christ, to which the ordinance of baptism is greatly assisting, where there is true faith; for otherwise, without faith, this ordinance will be of no use to any such end and purpose; and it is not any faith that will avail, but that which is of God's operation; faith is not naturally in men, all men have it not; and those that have it, have it not of themselves, it is the gift of God; it is what be works in them, and by his power performs:
"who hath raised him from the dead; this is a periphrasis of God the Father, to whom the resurrection of Christ from the dead is generally ascribed; though not to the exclusion of Christ, and of the Spirit, who were also concerned; and is here added, partly to show in what respect faith, which is God's work, has him for its object, as having raised Christ from the dead, who was delivered for offences, but is risen again through the power of God for justification, and whoever with his heart believes this shall be saved; and partly to show, that the same power is exerted in working true faith in the heart, as was put forth in raising Christ from the dead."
Colossians 2 Gill's Exposition
Last edited:
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
As far as Who does the Work in Saving Faith and Belief, it is here;
"Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God, that ye believe on him
whom he hath sent." John 6:29.
To believe on Jesus Christ is the "Work of God".
"REPENTANCE IS A GIFT OF GOD"
"The three following passages prove this:
"Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins" (Acts 5:31).
"And when they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance unto life" (Acts ll:18).
"The Lord's servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing, in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim. 2:24,25).
"The meaning of this is simply that repentance is wrought in man by the quickening power of the Holy Spirit, as we have already noted."
"FAITH IS A GIFT OF GOD."
"This is proved by the passages already quoted that designate repentance as a gift of God; for as we shall see, repentance and faith are inseparable graces.
"Each one, when appearing alone in the Scriptures, embraces the other; for, if this were not true, the passages which mention only the one or the other would teach that one may be saved without both repentance and faith.
"This is proved by passages which teach that our coming to Christ and believing on Him are the result of the working of God's power. See John 6:37, 65; Eph. 1:19, 20.
"This is further proved by the fact that faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:22)."
And, where does faith come from, again?
"But the fruit of the Spirit is....faith". Galatians 5:22.
And, in Salvation, Repentance and Faith are inseparable, Twin Graces, since you can`t have Faith and then obtain Repentence of that same Faith you have already gotten, and then Repent of having Faith, at a latter time.
"REPENTANCE AND FAITH CONSIDERED TOGETHER."
"Repentance and faith are inseparable synchronous graces. We have reference here, of course, to that repentance (signified by "metanoeo" and "metnaoia") which is unto salvation, and not to the kind (signified by "metamelomai") that Judas experienced.
"That repentance and faith are synchronous or simultaneous is evident from the fact that when a man is quickened into life there can be no lapse of time before he repents, nor can there be any before he believes. Otherwise we would have the new nature in rebellion against God and in unbelief. Thus there can be no chronological order in repentance and faith.
"Another thing which shows the inseparableness of repentance and faith is the fact that the Scripture often mentions only one of them as the means of salvation. Because of this fact we must think of each one, when used alone, as comprehending the other.
"In repentance and faith, as we have already pointed out in another chapter, the will is brought to choose righteousness as an ultimate end."
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Alan Dale Gross
I tend to agree, its agreeable with Eph 1:19-20
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Faith/Believing is by Grace, they cant be seperated Acts 18:27
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
Rom 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
I tend to agree, its agreeable with Eph 1:19-20
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Faith/Believing is by Grace, they cant be seperated Acts 18:27
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
Rom 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Last edited:
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
@kyredneck. That thread explains that faith is not a work, is always contrasted with works, and in passages like John 6:29 Jesus is making the very point, that you don't need to ask what to do to do the works of God, you need to believe. There is no sense going back around and around again with that.
Flowers use of Colossians 2:12 above is a perfect example of using a passage for a different intention than it was intended. A lot of the passages used in trying to prove faith coming before regeneration or vice versa are simply passages talking about both things, with nothing being intended about the order. Same with passages about whether faith is a condition? It is for sure a condition in the sense that no faith/no salvation. That does not mean that Calvinists are wrong when they say it is a gift or it is wrought in a person. It does not mean that God has provided the gospel information and now must patiently wait to see who takes advantage of this by choosing to believe. It just means that without faith you do not have a Christian. Without regeneration you don't have a Christian and you don't have a regenerated person who does not believe. I go with Owen on this and leave it at that.
I would be willing to bet that the reason the two Calvinists in the above video seemed to stumble on Colossians 2:12 is that the passage is so obscure as far as relating to the order of salvation that they hadn't seen it used like that before and were unprepared. I personally don't think regeneration comes before faith and that bothers me because some of the guys that I read and respect the most say it did. (Like Martyn Lloyd-Jones).
Flowers use of Colossians 2:12 above is a perfect example of using a passage for a different intention than it was intended. A lot of the passages used in trying to prove faith coming before regeneration or vice versa are simply passages talking about both things, with nothing being intended about the order. Same with passages about whether faith is a condition? It is for sure a condition in the sense that no faith/no salvation. That does not mean that Calvinists are wrong when they say it is a gift or it is wrought in a person. It does not mean that God has provided the gospel information and now must patiently wait to see who takes advantage of this by choosing to believe. It just means that without faith you do not have a Christian. Without regeneration you don't have a Christian and you don't have a regenerated person who does not believe. I go with Owen on this and leave it at that.
I would be willing to bet that the reason the two Calvinists in the above video seemed to stumble on Colossians 2:12 is that the passage is so obscure as far as relating to the order of salvation that they hadn't seen it used like that before and were unprepared. I personally don't think regeneration comes before faith and that bothers me because some of the guys that I read and respect the most say it did. (Like Martyn Lloyd-Jones).
Maybe in your imagination. There were several that agree, faith is a [good] work. It's even included in the law.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the other undone. Mt 23
Is Belief A Law? | Baptist Christian Forums
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Ky. If you have a pair of scissors around, take them and immediately go and cut Galatians 3 out of your Bible.
I've not a problem one with Galatians 3.