Colossians 2:13-14 and Reformed/Calvinist theology

[MichaelNZ]

I was listening to Matt Slick Live today and he mentioned that non-Reformed Christians have a problem with Colossians 2:14. To put the verse in context I included the previous verse:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 2:13-14 KJV)

The term "handwriting of ordinances" in the Greek is χειρογραφον (cheirographon) which means a legal declaration. When Jesus was on the Cross, just before He died, he said "It is finished", in Greek τετελεσται (tetelestai). Matt Slick said that legal documents have been found with the word "tetelestai" written at the bottom meaning "paid in full". So according to this verse our certificate of sin debt was paid in full by being nailed to the Cross of Christ. So when was our sin debt cancelled - on the Cross or when we believed? If everybody's sin debt was nailed to the Cross then that would mean that everybody is going to heaven, and the Bible states that this is not so (Revelation 21:8). So whose sin debt was nailed to the Cross? It must be only the elect.

I'm not a Calvinist - I'm just playing devil's advocate to better understand the issue. Could this verse refer to the sin debt of everybody who will put their trust in Christ, not necessarily being chosen by God?

 

[Bronconagurski]

I was listening to Matt Slick Live today and he mentioned that non-Reformed Christians have a problem with Colossians 2:14. To put the verse in context I included the previous verse:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 2:13-14 KJV)

The term "handwriting of ordinances" in the Greek is χειρογραφον (cheirographon) which means a legal declaration. When Jesus was on the Cross, just before He died, he said "It is finished", in Greek τετελεσται (tetelestai). Matt Slick said that legal documents have been found with the word "tetelestai" written at the bottom meaning "paid in full". So according to this verse our certificate of sin debt was paid in full by being nailed to the Cross of Christ. So when was our sin debt cancelled - on the Cross or when we believed? If everybody's sin debt was nailed to the Cross then that would mean that everybody is going to heaven, and the Bible states that this is not so (Revelation 21:8). So whose sin debt was nailed to the Cross? It must be only the elect.

I'm not a Calvinist - I'm just playing devil's advocate to better understand the issue. Could this verse refer to the sin debt of everybody who will put their trust in Christ, not necessarily being chosen by God?

I will compare those verses to these: 1 John 2:1-2 (ESV)
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

I heard a preacher say when he was in bible college that he had a teacher that used the verses in the OP and the verses I gave to indicate universal salvation. He told the class their job was not to go out to the bars and try and save people, but to convince them they are already saved. He said he withdrew from that college and went elsewhere.

I think these verses indicate that Jesus' death was sufficient to save every human being that has ever been born, but we know that will not happen. I have also heard that the verses are only talking about the elect. If so, then I have always wondered why the scriptures didn't just use the word elect. I tend to think it was just showing how powerful His sacrifice was.

 

[Bronconagurski]

I was listening to Matt Slick Live today and he mentioned that non-Reformed Christians have a problem with Colossians 2:14. To put the verse in context I included the previous verse:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 2:13-14 KJV)

The term "handwriting of ordinances" in the Greek is χειρογραφον (cheirographon) which means a legal declaration. When Jesus was on the Cross, just before He died, he said "It is finished", in Greek τετελεσται (tetelestai). Matt Slick said that legal documents have been found with the word "tetelestai" written at the bottom meaning "paid in full". So according to this verse our certificate of sin debt was paid in full by being nailed to the Cross of Christ. So when was our sin debt cancelled - on the Cross or when we believed? If everybody's sin debt was nailed to the Cross then that would mean that everybody is going to heaven, and the Bible states that this is not so (Revelation 21:8). So whose sin debt was nailed to the Cross? It must be only the elect.

I'm not a Calvinist - I'm just playing devil's advocate to better understand the issue. Could this verse refer to the sin debt of everybody who will put their trust in Christ, not necessarily being chosen by God?

I like what McCarthur wrote about being quickened together with Christ:

Fortunately, the story did not end there. Because God is "rich in mercy" (Eph. 2:4), He made us alive together with Him. Paul again stresses the believer's union with Christ (cf. 2:10, "in Him"; 2:11, "in Him"; 2:12, "with Him"). Those who were hopelessly dead in sin received new life through that union. God initiates the salvation process, because spiritually dead people cannot make themselves alive.MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – Colossians and Philemon.

Without God, we would have no hope of salvation, and that is indisputable.

 

[TCGreek]

Paul is addressing those who are already in Christ, simply reminding them of what happened.

No need to get in a Calvinists-nonCalvinists fight.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Paul is addressing those who are already in Christ, simply reminding them of what happened.

No need to get in a Calvinists-nonCalvinists fight.

Ah, but what has already happened in the mind of God is the point from the Calvinistic view.

 

[Van]

I was listening to Matt Slick Live today and he mentioned that non-Reformed Christians have a problem with Colossians 2:14. To put the verse in context I included the previous verse:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 2:13-14 KJV)

The term "handwriting of ordinances" in the Greek is χειρογραφον (cheirographon) which means a legal declaration. When Jesus was on the Cross, just before He died, he said "It is finished", in Greek τετελεσται (tetelestai). Matt Slick said that legal documents have been found with the word "tetelestai" written at the bottom meaning "paid in full". So according to this verse our certificate of sin debt was paid in full by being nailed to the Cross of Christ. So when was our sin debt cancelled - on the Cross or when we believed? If everybody's sin debt was nailed to the Cross then that would mean that everybody is going to heaven, and the Bible states that this is not so (Revelation 21:8). So whose sin debt was nailed to the Cross? It must be only the elect.

I'm not a Calvinist - I'm just playing devil's advocate to better understand the issue. Could this verse refer to the sin debt of everybody who will put their trust in Christ, not necessarily being chosen by God?

Thanks MichaelNZ for your well presented biblical discussion topic.

Lets go over it and see if we share understanding:

And you being dead... he hath quickened. So whatever is being said, is being said of folks who were once dead but now have been quickened

And you being dead - refers to a person who is spiritually dead, being separated from God. To be made alive is to be united with God. So we are made alive together with Christ. No one is spiritually alive before they are spiritually placed in Christ.

The "uncircumcision" of your flesh refers to our flesh not being part of what is dedicated to God. So again the idea is we were once fallen men separated from God with ungodly fleshly desires.

He hath quickened together with Him refers to those whose faith God has credited as righteousness and placed spiritually in Christ so we have been "quickened" i.e. made alive when we were united with Christ.

In Christ, we undergo the "circumcision of Christ" where our sins are forgiven, washed away by the precious blood of the Lamb.

Now, spiritually in Christ we have received the reconciliation provided by Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Thus only those spiritually placed in Christ receive the propitiation and justification and therefore the forgiveness provided by the Cross.

The "handwriting of the ordinances" refers to the Mosaic Law written in scripture. Thus Christ's sacrifice "paid in full" whatever debt might arise from transgress of the Law. Therefore anyone in Christ has that debt removed because the blood of the Lamb paid that debt. But note, only a person spiritually made alive, i.e. placed in Christ, has that debt forgiven. Again, read the verse and ask, when was the curse of the Law blotted out that was against us, before we were in Christ or after we had undergone the "circumcision of Christ."

In summary Christ's finished work of the Cross provides justification of life to all men, Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, but an individual only receives that reconciliation when God spiritually places them in Christ. That is why scripture reads, in Christ, God is reconciling the world to Himself, rather than God has reconciled the world to Himself. Reconciliation is obtained when we are put spiritually in Christ based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. That is why, after Christ said "it is finished, paid in full" God begs the lost to be reconciled to God.

 

[Winman]

This verse also proves that faith precedes regeneration.

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 2:13-14 KJV)

The phrase "having forgiven you all trespasses" points directly back to the phrase "hath he quickened together with him". This explains exactly what quickening or regeneration is, it is to be forgiven your sins. The moment your sins are forgiven, you are no longer "dead in sin" and therefore are now spiritually alive. No one can be spiritually alive while he is still dead in sins, and no one is forgiven their sins or justified until they first believe. Faith precedes regeneration or quickening.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Again, we are justified or forgiven our sins by faith. It is by faith that we have access into grace.

This verse does not give non-Cals problems at all, it supports their view and refutes Calvinism.

 

[TCGreek]

Ah, but what has already happened in the mind of God is the point from the Calvinistic view.

But Paul is not preoccupied with what already taken place in the mind of God in these verses. Such Calvinistic reading is an imposition.

 

[Bronconagurski]

But Paul is not preoccupied with what already taken place in the mind of God in these verses. Such Calvinistic reading is an imposition.

No worries, dude, just playing d.a. as I have already stated that I thought it didn't refer to the elect, but the sufficiency of the work of Christ.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I was listening to Matt Slick Live today and he mentioned that non-Reformed Christians have a problem with Colossians 2:14. To put the verse in context I included the previous verse:

We don't have a problem with it. I think sometimes the confusion lies because there is something of a difference between how the reformed and non-reformed perceive what it means for all sins to be "nailed to the cross" or "paid for". Moreover, a reformed person might often argue that if Christ did indeed "pay for" the sins of the un-saved upon the cross, then it is not possible that they be required to "pay for" them in hell. Thus, there is no way for "Unlimited Atonement" to not be true. This seems to be the crux of the disagreement. Many Calvinists would insist that one's sins cannot be "paid for" twice (by Jesus and then by the un-repentant sinner). This is essentially an assumption that non-reformed simply do not make usually.
They are coming at it from two different perspectives.

So according to this verse our certificate of sin debt was paid in full by being nailed to the Cross of Christ.

Yes

So when was our sin debt cancelled - on the Cross or when we believed?

Yours was individually cancelled when you believed. The debt was paid for on the cross.

If everybody's sin debt was nailed to the Cross then that would mean that everybody is going to heaven,

No. If I were in debt to Vinny the loan-shark and a good freind loved me enough to give me the money to pay off that debt, but instead of paying off my loan-shark, I simply put the money under my matress and did nothing with it. Then my freind has "paid for" my debt, only, I never gave it to my creditor, thus my debt was never "cancelled". Vinny the loan-shark comes to my house breaks my legs, and then burns down my house, and the money is burned up. It has cost my loving freind, and it has also cost me...but Vinny never got his money.

and the Bible states that this is not so (Revelation 21:8). So whose sin debt was nailed to the Cross? It must be only the elect.

The Calvinist cannot accept usually that the same crime or debt can end up costing more than one person....i.e both Christ and the reprobate. A non-reformed person must wrap his head around the idea that it can. I personally never viewed Christ's atoning work as a mere sum-total of punishment dealt upon Christ for a sum-total of all sins which were to be paid for. Subconciously, (I think) the Calvinist seems to view it like this. I don't. I see that an infinitely perfect and infinitely Holy God was offended, and therefore an infinitely perfect sacrifice must be made for these offenses to satisfy the demands of justice. Why for instance, is someone who has offended only one portion of the law guilty of all? Because it is WHOM one offended that is at issue, not how "BAD" the tresspass was. There is no independent criterion of right and wrong in the Universe, only the perfection of it's sole law-giver.

An imperfect man can never "Pay-off" the cosmic treason he has committed against a perfect God. Therefore, there is no amount of time he can spend in Hell to work it off. His debt is NEVER paid for in hell. Only a perfect sacrifice can satisfy the demands of justice against a perfect offended party. Thus, Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, has been offered to "pay for" the debt. This satisfies in the sense that it is sufficiently potent. But if you choose to refuse that substitution...then it is never placed on your account. I believe that Christ's punishment on the cross would have been the same if he were paying only for the crimes of only ONE elected "sheep" (in the Calvinist view) or if EVERY person on Earth (in a non-reformed view) accepted Christ's substitutionary sacrifice. The "Cost" for sin is the same either way.

 

[humblethinker]

But Paul is not preoccupied with what already taken place in the mind of God in these verses. Such Calvinistic reading is an imposition.

But it seems for the Calvinist all scripture is front-loaded with what has already taken place and so such a Calvinistic reading is not an "imposition" but is instead "inappropriate"... we should just go along with the script and not question whether it actually exists.

 

[Van]

Just a slight nit pick, "when we believed" verse "when God put us spiritually in Christ?" "he hath quickened with Him" refers to being spiritually placed in Christ. So when were our sins forgiven, when we believed or when we were quickened according to this verse?

 

[TCGreek]

But it seems for the Calvinist all scripture is front-loaded with what has already taken place and so such a Calvinistic reading is not an "imposition" but is instead "inappropriate"... we should just go along with the script and not question whether it actually exists.

Not all Calvinists read the same script. Allow for differences. Do not stereotype.

 

[Van]

That was so profound, not all Calvinists read the same scripture. So why discuss the fact that Calvinists hold views all over the map, rather than what does Calvinism teach about Colossians 2:13-14. Calvinism teaches penal substitution, where Christ died only for the elect's sins, so as to avoid paying twice for the sins of the lost, once at the cross and once in Hades/Gehenna. And of course this verse does not support that fictional view. The phrase "nailing to the cross" refers to how the "certificate of indebtedness" was taken out of the way. And since this occurred after we were quickened, i.e. made alive together with Christ, it refers to the decrees against us being taken away by the blood of Jesus who was nailed to the cross to die as the sacrifice for the sin of the world. The sacrifice is sufficient to pay for all the debt washed away by the blood of Jesus, whoever is placed in Christ, their certificate of indebtedness is taken out of the way, they are no long in debt, their ransom has been paid.

 

[TCGreek]

That was so profound, not all Calvinists read the same scripture. So why discuss the fact that Calvinists hold views all over the map, rather than what does Calvinism teach about Colossians 2:13-14. Calvinism teaches penal substitution, where Christ died only for the elect's sins, so as to avoid paying twice for the sins of the lost, once at the cross and once in Hades/Gehenna. And of course this verse does not support that fictional view. The phrase "nailing to the cross" refers to how the "certificate of indebtedness" was taken out of the way. And since this occurred after we were quickened, i.e. made alive together with Christ, it refers to the decrees against us being taken away by the blood of Jesus who was nailed to the cross to die as the sacrifice for the sin of the world. The sacrifice is sufficient to pay for all the debt washed away by the blood of Jesus, whoever is placed in Christ, their certificate of indebtedness is taken out of the way, they are no long in debt, their ransom has been paid.

I believe you misunderstood me to a degree. At any rate, no all Calvinists think alike.

Have you read someone like Horton on Col. 2:11-13?

 

[Van]

You really need to abstain from your stereotypical thinking, not all non-cal read the same script. I actually posted my understanding of the passage, still waiting for someone to present another view. Have you read my position in this thread? Why not address it?

 

[humblethinker]

I believe you misunderstood me to a degree. At any rate, no all Calvinists think alike.

Have you read someone like Horton on Col. 2:11-13?

You really need to abstain from your stereotypical thinking, not all non-cal read the same script. I actually posted my understanding of the passage, still waiting for someone to present another view. Have you read my position in this thread? Why not address it?

TCGreek, I think you are correct regarding Van misunderstanding... but then again he seems to deny that he misunderstood you, which is confusing to me... I'm trying to make sense out of what he meant if it is actually the case that he didn't misunderstand... I'll just skip that and give him the benefit of my doubt.

Not all Calvinists read the same script. Allow for differences. Do not stereotype.

I recognize that what you say is accurate. Can you indicate how your beliefs differ from the stereotype you say I've presented? Maybe kill two birds with one stone by explaining your view of Col. 2:11-13?

 

[TCGreek]

I recognize that what you say is accurate. Can you indicate how your beliefs differ from the stereotype you say I've presented? Maybe kill two birds with one stone by explaining your view of Col. 2:11-13?

Regarding Col. 2:12-14, Paul is simply expanding on the sufficiency of Christ even in believers' salvation, so they don't need to be swayed by the Colossian heresy.

My beliefs would differ in bring Calvinism to this text. As I said, such would be an imposition.

 

[Yeshua1]

I will compare those verses to these: 1 John 2:1-2 (ESV)
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

I heard a preacher say when he was in bible college that he had a teacher that used the verses in the OP and the verses I gave to indicate universal salvation. He told the class their job was not to go out to the bars and try and save people, but to convince them they are already saved. He said he withdrew from that college and went elsewhere.

I think these verses indicate that Jesus' death was sufficient to save every human being that has ever been born, but we know that will not happen. I have also heard that the verses are only talking about the elect. If so, then I have always wondered why the scriptures didn't just use the word elect. I tend to think it was just showing how powerful His sacrifice was.

My sin debt in full as paid by jesus on the Cross, but I ONLY received the benefit of that when God saved me, when faith was placed into Jesus...

Jesus death sufficient to pay for all who would ever get saved....

 

[Yeshua1]

That was so profound, not all Calvinists read the same scripture. So why discuss the fact that Calvinists hold views all over the map, rather than what does Calvinism teach about Colossians 2:13-14. Calvinism teaches penal substitution, where Christ died only for the elect's sins, so as to avoid paying twice for the sins of the lost, once at the cross and once in Hades/Gehenna. And of course this verse does not support that fictional view. The phrase "nailing to the cross" refers to how the "certificate of indebtedness" was taken out of the way. And since this occurred after we were quickened, i.e. made alive together with Christ, it refers to the decrees against us being taken away by the blood of Jesus who was nailed to the cross to die as the sacrifice for the sin of the world. The sacrifice is sufficient to pay for all the debt washed away by the blood of Jesus, whoever is placed in Christ, their certificate of indebtedness is taken out of the way, they are no long in debt, their ransom has been paid.

jesus death sufficient to pay in full and freely justify ALL who would come to god thru Him and live!