Coming to God

[Herald]

But the difference is that we don't draw a conclusion on this point, we merely appeal to mystery. Calvinists draw a conclusion that because free independent decisions are not explainable by human logic that the other option must be true, which is that God has causally determined all choice...a non-biblical conclusion.

We only rest in God's mystery when Scripture is silent or has gone as far as the Holy Spirit intends for it to go on a given subject.

You're assuming that Scripture doesn't explain human choices at all. That's not true. The Bible is replete with human choices, Jos. 24:15; 1 Sam. 17:8; 1 Chr. 21:10; Acts 15:22 et. al. There is nothing casual about God's choices. God acts after the counsel of His own will. The idea that the doctrines of grace would treat God's choices as casual strains credulity.

God wouldn't even tempt men to sin, much less casually determine it to happen.

Of course God doesn't tempt people to sin. James 1 is clear about that. When man sins God is not culpable. We can get into the weeds if you wish about 1st and 2nd causes, but the D.o.G. teaches that even though God ordains events (1st cause), He is not culpable for the sinful actions of men (2nd cause). I know, I know. That in itself is a lengthy discussion. I'm stating it because that is how we understand the Bible to speak on God, culpability, and sin.

Again, God is not causal in His choices You seem to think some on the D.o.G. side believe that. If so, you're misrepresenting them.

I'm not saying you don't understand our argument, I'm saying you all reject human freedom and any true since of accountability because it is mysterious, yet your own system eventually appeals to mystery too.

Okay. The horse is dead on this one. If you read the works of the Reformers, Puritans, and post-Puritans you will be pressed to find one of them who rejects human freedom and accountability. The D.o.G. champions human freedom and accountability. In his fallen state man freely chooses to sin. Of course, he can't do otherwise because he is completely fallen in all his faculties because of sin. The liberated will is contained within the saved man. This man can freely chooses to obey God or sin; he can do both. The mystery comes when trying to understand how human choice works within God's prescriptive will. Accountability has never been a conundrum for the D.o.G. All men have sinned and face judgment. That is accountability. Saved men who continue sinning face the discipline of the Church and the discipline of the Lord. More accountability.

Define sovereign.

I like the following definition:

"God's ultimate Lordship and rule over the universe so that the divine will is supreme over all else (Eph. 1:11; Rev. 4:11). This will is known most fully in Jesus Christ, who expressed God's ways in self-giving service (Phil. 2:5-8)."

I agree, but where in scripture does it teach that God causally determines every choice of man?

I don't know. I never suggested God was/is casual. I don't where you got this from.

That is a logical conclusion based on finite linear thinking. At times God intervenes to change men's minds (i.e. Jonah), but the very fact that he uses normative means such as a storm and a big fish proves he is not somehow manipulating the desires of men through innate means. Sure God intervenes to ensure his message is delivered but how does that prove God is always determining who will and won't respond to that message?

How can you prove the converse? I think our view on this is the logical conclusion of how we view Scripture.

How can you call it a mystery while at the same time concluding men's sinful choices are God's choices?

I answered this earlier (1st and 2nd causes).

If you are talking about God's choice to permit that which is sinful, okay, but I don't think you merely saying God permits these choices, are you?

He permits then can brings them to pass for His purposes, all of which are good.

 

[Iconoclast]

We only rest in God's mystery when Scripture is silent or has gone as far as the Holy Spirit intends for it to go on a given subject.

You're assuming that Scripture doesn't explain human choices at all. That's not true. The Bible is replete with human choices, Jos. 24:15; 1 Sam. 17:8; 1 Chr. 21:10; Acts 15:22 et. al. There is nothing casual about God's choices. God acts after the counsel of His own will. The idea that the doctrines of grace would treat God's choices as casual strains credulity.



Of course God doesn't tempt people to sin. James 1 is clear about that. When man sins God is not culpable. We can get into the weeds if you wish about 1st and 2nd causes, but the D.o.G. teaches that even though God ordains events (1st cause), He is not culpable for the sinful actions of men (2nd cause). I know, I know. That in itself is a lengthy discussion. I'm stating it because that is how we understand the Bible to speak on God, culpability, and sin.

Again, God is not causal in His choices You seem to think some on the D.o.G. side believe that. If so, you're misrepresenting them.



Okay. The horse is dead on this one. If you read the works of the Reformers, Puritans, and post-Puritans you will be pressed to find one of them who rejects human freedom and accountability. The D.o.G. champions human freedom and accountability. In his fallen state man freely chooses to sin. Of course, he can't do otherwise because he is completely fallen in all his faculties because of sin. The liberated will is contained within the saved man. This man can freely chooses to obey God or sin; he can do both. The mystery comes when trying to understand how human choice works within God's prescriptive will. Accountability has never been a conundrum for the D.o.G. All men have sinned and face judgment. That is accountability. Saved men who continue sinning face the discipline of the Church and the discipline of the Lord. More accountability.



I like the following definition:





I don't know. I never suggested God was/is casual. I don't where you got this from.



How can you prove the converse? I think our view on this is the logical conclusion of how we view Scripture.




I answered this earlier (1st and 2nd causes).



He permits then can brings them to pass for His purposes, all of which are good.

:thumbsup::thumbs::applause:

 

[jbh28]

And the Philipian jailer refutes your view. You have said you believe regeneration and faith occur at the same moment, but the Philipian jailer came before he had believed. He did not even know that he must believe on Jesus until Paul and Silas informed him. And it was only after he washed them and took them home that Paul and Silas preached to his whole family and they all believed.

The Philipian jailer desired to be saved, and he was sincere. But he was not regenerated, he had not yet believed on Jesus.

It doesn't even come close to refute my view. Yes, I believe regeneration(new life) and faith happen at the same time. You are assuming that the Holy spirit is not doing a work in the jailer's heart.

 

[Winman]

It doesn't even come close to refute my view. Yes, I believe regeneration(new life) and faith happen at the same time. You are assuming that the Holy spirit is not doing a work in the jailer's heart.

Do you believe the Philipian jailer was born again when he burst in on Paul and Silas?

 

[jbh28]

Quote chapter and verse.

You want Christ and you were a natural man so your statement as it stands is false.

I Cor 2:14 (and "were" is the key word there, but you knew that already)

I think you meant to say, "The bible teaches that the natural man IF LEFT TO HIMSELF will never want Christ," which is a statement we can both affirm. You just falsely believe the work of God is irresistibly applied to a select few. (relatively few that is)

That's what the Bible teaches. You just reject it.

I agree, but the HS work through the gospel is not irresistible. People that God loves and genuinely longs to gather to himself are sometimes unwilling (Matt. 23:37).

common misquote of the passage.

That is not a lacking on God's part, but on man's. God has provided all they need and thus they have NO EXCUSE.

of course. Never stated otherwise.

I agree, but yet again, God does these things through resistible means. Men are able to trade the revealed truth in for lies, and thus will be held to account.

When God opens their eyes, they come. They come willingly. God has convicted their heart of sin and has changed their heart of stone to a heart of flesh. They now see (understand) the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and fully desire to come to Christ.

Again, this is what the Bible teaches. I believe the Bible for what it teaches, not what I want it to teach.

 

[jbh28]

Do you believe the Philipian jailer was born again when he burst in on Paul and Silas?

The philipian jailer was born again and had faith and repentance, was justified, sanctified at the exact came time.

 

[Winman]

The philipian jailer was born again and had faith and repentance, was justified, sanctified at the exact came time.

That was not my question and you know it. Was the Philipian jailer born again when he burst in and asked Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved?

 

[jbh28]

That was not my question and you know it. Was the Philipian jailer born again when he burst in and asked Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved?

That was my answer. someone asking how to be saved doesn't mean that they are regenerate. The rich young man in Matthew 19 asked and went away unsaved. People can desire to be saved from the judgment of God and never get saved because they don't want to come to Christ and believe in him alone.

 

[Winman]

That was my answer. someone asking how to be saved doesn't mean that they are regenerate. The rich young man in Matthew 19 asked and went away unsaved. People can desire to be saved from the judgment of God and never get saved because they don't want to come to Christ and believe in him alone.

Exactly. There must have been grace applied toward both men or neither would come. But this grace is not irresistible, the young rich ruler was not willing to give up his riches. However, the Philipian jailer was willing to trust in Jesus and be saved.

You know as well as I do that the Philipian jailer could not have been regenerate when he burst in and asked how to be saved, because he had not yet believed in Jesus, he did not even know that he had to believe in Jesus when he burst in. Yet he was sincere and truly wanted to be saved.

So, for Calvinism to teach that an unregenerate man cannot truly seek God is refuted by the story of the Philipian jailer, whether you will admit it or not.

 

[Skandelon]

I Cor 2:14 (and "were" is the key word there, but you knew that already)

The point is how does one move from being natural to being spiritual. You all think we do nothing and are mere pots in the potters hand and if he wants to cleanse us and use us it is totally on Him to do that, but that is NOT what scripture teaches. You use Romans 9 as a proof text to support that view, but proper hermeneutics teaches us to let scripture interpret scripture.

Read what Paul teaches Timothy:

20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21 If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
​

Clearly Paul is not using the analogy of some pottery for noble use and some for common to suggest that man plays no role in the process of moving from being one to the other. Clearly he is teaching that it is the responsibility of the man to repent, and 'cleanse himself.'

And you know that 1 Cor 2:14 goes on to show that he is speaking to brethren of the church who are living carnal/fleshy lives and they too are unable to receive the 'deep things of God' (vs 10) to which Paul is speaking. That has nothing to do with a person being born unable to understand God clear revelation of Himself.

 

[Skandelon]

We only rest in God's mystery when Scripture is silent or has gone as far as the Holy Spirit intends for it to go on a given subject.

Right, and I submit that scripture never teaches that God has causally determined the choices of men. That is not casual, but causal, as in caused by God through second or third causes, which IS the most typical view of Calvinistic determinism or compatibilism.

It appears the rest of your post is based upon a misunderstanding of this term and its meaning so I'll leave it there...

 

[jbh28]

Exactly. There must have been grace applied toward both men or neither would come. But this grace is not irresistible, the young rich ruler was not willing to give up his riches. However, the Philipian jailer was willing to trust in Jesus and be saved.

You know as well as I do that the Philipian jailer could not have been regenerate when he burst in and asked how to be saved, because he had not yet believed in Jesus, he did not even know that he had to believe in Jesus when he burst in. Yet he was sincere and truly wanted to be saved.

So, for Calvinism to teach that an unregenerate man cannot truly seek God is refuted by the story of the Philipian jailer, whether you will admit it or not.

It's not refuted because that exactly what the Bible teaches. It clearly says that "no man seeks after God. Anyone that denies that is denying the Bible.
It never said that the jailer was seeking God(because the Bible says that he wouldn't) but seeking to be saved from the judgment of God. Big difference. The Holy Spirit opened the heart of the jailer and thus he was saved. This didn't happen with the rich young ruler.

btw, "irresistible grace" means irresistible to the elect. The non elect resist God their whole lives.

 

[jbh28]

The point is how does one move from being natural to being spiritual.

God Salvation is 100% of God

You all think we do nothing and are mere pots in the potters hand and if he wants to cleanse us and use us it is totally on Him to do that, but that is NOT what scripture teaches. You use Romans 9 as a proof text to support that view, but proper hermeneutics teaches us to let scripture interpret scripture.

I haven't mentioned Romans 9. You must not be really reading my posts and responding to them but rather just post non sense. If you actually read my post, you would have seen the Bible passages I referenced.

And you know that 1 Cor 2:14 goes on to show that he is speaking to brethren of the church who are living carnal/fleshy lives and they too are unable to receive the 'deep things of God' (vs 10) to which Paul is speaking. That has nothing to do with a person being born unable to understand God clear revelation of Himself.

Verse 14 is about unsaved. Everyone agrees with that. That natural man doesn't have the Spirit. He does in chapter 3 deal with believers that are living carnally. But verse 14 is clearly about a natural man doesn't understand the things of God just as it says.

 

[Herald]

Right, and I submit that scripture never teaches that God has causally determined the choices of men. That is not casual, but causal, as in caused by God through second or third causes, which IS the most typical view of Calvinistic determinism or compatibilism.

It appears the rest of your post is based upon a misunderstanding of this term and its meaning so I'll leave it there...

You know what, my New Jersey public school trained brain kept reading it as casual! :laugh: I even brought up first and second causes in my last post and I still didn't catch on to what you were saying. Anyone got some ketchup for the egg I have on my face?

Now that I'm in sync with the word, I submit to you that the Bible does teach it. So, there you have it. Now, as I said earlier, if you want to get into the weeds about causation, fine; but the topic probably deserves it's own thread.

 

[Winman]

It's not refuted because that exactly what the Bible teaches. It clearly says that "no man seeks after God. Anyone that denies that is denying the Bible.
It never said that the jailer was seeking God(because the Bible says that he wouldn't) but seeking to be saved from the judgment of God. Big difference. The Holy Spirit opened the heart of the jailer and thus he was saved. This didn't happen with the rich young ruler.

btw, "irresistible grace" means irresistible to the elect. The non elect resist God their whole lives.

What pure baloney. The Philipian jailer absolutely repented and was seeking God.

 

[Skandelon]

You know what, my New Jersey public school trained brain kept reading it as casual! :laugh: I even brought up first and second causes in my last post and I still didn't catch on to what you were saying. Anyone got some ketchup for the egg I have on my face?

Not a big deal, it just took me a while to figure out what you thought I was saying because I was reading casual as causal.

Now that I'm in sync with the word, I submit to you that the Bible does teach it.

Chapter and verse?

 

[Skandelon]

I haven't mentioned Romans 9. You must not be really reading my posts and responding to them but rather just post non sense. If you actually read my post, you would have seen the Bible passages I referenced.

I addressed both. You and many Calvinists have often referred to Romans 9 in reference to us being mere clay in the potters hand as a proof text for our 'doing nothing' in the process. The 2 Tim passage clearly addresses that point and you conveniently ignored it.

The strongest points of one's argument are not typically reflected in the portion that his opponents address, but in the portions ignored.

Verse 14 is about unsaved. Everyone agrees with that. That natural man doesn't have the Spirit. He does in chapter 3 deal with believers that are living carnally. But verse 14 is clearly about a natural man doesn't understand the things of God just as it says.

He doesn't understand the things of God UNLESS God intervenes and reveals those things. What do you think Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Spirit, is doing if not making clear the mysteries of the Spirit? You seem to assume the work of the spirit in illuminating truth is some secret inward effectual work when in reality it clearly is through inspiring men like Paul to write it in clear human language. No one has any excuse for not understanding the plain words of scripture, no one. They are accountable for how they choose to respond to that revealed truth.

 

[Herald]

Not a big deal, it just took me a while to figure out what you thought I was saying because I was reading casual as causal.

Chapter and verse?

Like I said, the subject deserves its own thread. A discussion on causation is going to be a time sink; pithy is not going to do it justice.

 

[psalms109:31]

Matthew 10:
The Workers Are Few

35 Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness. 36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. 38 Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.”

Luke 10
Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two

10 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[Some manuscripts seventy; also in verse 17] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3 Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.

5 “When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6 If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. 7 Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.

8 “When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.


2 Corinthians 5 :
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.




A farmer goes out prepares the ground, plants the seed, water it and does his part then trust in God to do His part. It is part of the curse that we toil in the ground, that we work it.

We are responsible free agent, no matter how we want to try to go around it we are in His salvation plan and we do have a part to play in it. I do know the more they work in the field and the more fields they plant they more it will yield.

God as a man started it off the first fruits and sends us out to continue what God started. I do believe no one seeks the God we know through Jesus that is why He sends us out to be His messengers and that no one is good, praise God Jesus came to save sinners which I am the worst.

1 Corinthians 3 :
5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

 

[jbh28]

What pure baloney. The Philipian jailer absolutely repented and was seeking God.

Could you please show this in the Bible?