Comma in Luke 23:43

[agedman]

It was already sundown, Mark 15:42, ". . . And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, . . ." The 15th had just ended. Joseph of Arimathaea, had to wait until that holy day was over to obtain Jesus' body.

The Geneva Bible reads, ". . . And nowe when the night was come . . . ."

You have to remember, the high holy day began at sunset.

The bodies had to be removed prior to sundown and the beginning of the high holy day (passover).

Joseph of Arimathaea did not wait for the holy day to be over before obtaining the body of Jesus. Rather, Pilot was alarmed that He had already died.

The year the Lord was crucified the Passover took place on Friday (high holy day) and the regular Sabbath took place at the regular time (Saturday). John records that "THAT Sabbath was a high day" in comparison to the regular Sabbath.

The Lord died on the "preparation day" that was the day the atonement sacrifice was slaughtered at exactly 3:00. That took place on Thursday, the next day starting at approximately 6:00 (depending on sundown on our Thursday) would start (the yearly required day of atonement) so no bodies could remained on the crosses at Sundown.

The burial preparation was not completed because on Sunday morning the ladies were carrying the rest of the anointing stuff to the tomb expecting to gain access and do the rest of the burial ritual things Jews of that day did.

Though this is not the thread topic, using the Jewish timing, the Lord spent Friday night, Friday Day, (Sabbath - Saturday night, Saturday day. Sunday (first day of the week) night, Sunday day (He arose prior to the ladies arriving at the tomb after they left their home(s) at daybreak).

Three days, three nights just as Jonah and Jesus pointedly .

I don't intend to get into the time line more than this post.

However, there is no Scripture foundation that Christ's body and the body of the others were left on the crosss but were removed prior to sundown the day they died.

 

[Van]

From the NET footnote concerning the Greek word translated "today."

33sn The Greek word for today (σήμερον, shmeron) occurs eleven times in the Gospel of Luke (2:11; 4:21; 5:26; 12:28; 13:32-33; 19:5, 9; 22:34, 61; 23:43) and nine times in Acts. Its use, especially in passages such as 2:11, 4:21, 5:26; 19:5, 9, signifies the dawning of the era of messianic salvation and the fulfillment of the plan of God. Not only does it underscore the idea of present fulfillment in Jesus’ ministry, but it also indicates salvific fulfillment present in the church (cf. Acts 1:6; 3:18; D. L. Bock, Luke [BECNT], 1:412; I. H. Marshall, Luke, [NIGTC], 873).

In the NET translation, "I tell you the truth, today you... the comma fits the expression of an opening aside.

So we have two lines of evidence, Luke's emphasis on immediacy and the presentation of differing thoughts.

 

[37818]

You have to remember, the high holy day began at sunset.

Mark 14:12 was the 14th, Exodus 12:18.
The 15th began that following evening, Mark 14:17. The preparation (16th), that is, the day before the sabbath (17th) began at that evening (16th) in Mark 15:42.

 

[agedman]

Mark 14:12 was the 14th, Exodus 12:18.
The 15th began that following evening, Mark 14:17. The preparation (16th), that is, the day before the sabbath (17th) began at that evening (16th) in Mark 15:42.

There is quite a bit of controversy even among messianic Jews as to the actual day. The problem comes from trying to reconcile four variant accounts along with what year and recognition that the Seder was not a single meal time among all Jews, and other problems associated with any 2000 year old historical events.

You can cling to a Friday with it’s obvious difficulties, and I may use Thursday which removes all difficulty. Foe example, holding to a Friday crucifixion obliges a “silent day” from the time of the triumphal entry, Thursday’s timing does not. Friday obliges a two and half day residency in the tomb, Thursday does not. And on it goes.

Don’t neglect that the night and day are switched as it relates to the Jews. What we would call Wednesday night is Thursday night for the Jews begin there day at the time of sundown - night. They always move from dark to light. .

Here, look at these links. The last link gives day date details in chart form. Look at the astronomical statements offered as links in the links, too.

The Passover Problem Solved by Tom Bradford

What day of the week did Jesus die?

http://www.reenactingtheway.com/upl.../jesus-death-resurrection-timeline_1_orig.jpg

 

[37818]

There is quite a bit of controversy even among messianic Jews as to the actual day. The problem comes from trying to reconcile four variant accounts along with what year and recognition that the Seder was not a single meal time among all Jews, and other problems associated with any 2000 year old historical events.

You can cling to a Friday with it’s obvious difficulties, and I may use Thursday which removes all difficulty. Foe example, holding to a Friday crucifixion obliges a “silent day” from the time of the triumphal entry, Thursday’s timing does not. Friday obliges a two and half day residency in the tomb, Thursday does not. And on it goes.

Don’t neglect that the night and day are switched as it relates to the Jews. What we would call Wednesday night is Thursday night for the Jews begin there day at the time of sundown - night. They always move from dark to light. .

Here, look at these links. The last link gives day date details in chart form. Look at the astronomical statements offered as links in the links, too.

The Passover Problem Solved by Tom Bradford

What day of the week did Jesus die?

http://www.reenactingtheway.com/upl.../jesus-death-resurrection-timeline_1_orig.jpg

Mark 14:12 expliciitly states, ". . . the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . ." identifying a fixed day in history. On the Jewish calendar, the 14th of that month. Exodus 12:18, ". . . In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, . . ." As you acknowedged, the Jewish day begins with its evening. So Mark 14:17, ". . .And in the evening . . ." marks the begining of the following date, the 15th. So we have a definitive Jewish date of Christ's crucifixion. Further study the Julian date being April 6th 30 A.D., a Thursday.

 

[agedman]

Mark 14:12 expliciitly states, ". . . the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . ." identifying a fixed day in history. On the Jewish calendar, the 14th of that month. Exodus 12:18, ". . . In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, . . ." As you acknowedged, the Jewish day begins with its evening. So Mark 14:17, ". . .And in the evening . . ." marks the begining of the following date, the 15th. So we have a definitive Jewish date of Christ's crucifixion. Further study the Julian date being April 6th 30 A.D., a Thursday.

Really?

Can we know for sure the exact date of Jesus' death?

Based on the biblical record, we can determine the likely day of Jesus’ death:

1. Matthew says Jesus was born in the days of Herod the Great. History records that Herod died in 4 BC, so Jesus must be born on or before 4 BC. (Matthew 2:1)
2. Jesus was born about two years before Herod died (see Matthew 2:13-16), so Jesus was born around 6 BC.
3. Luke says Jesus started His ministry at the age of 30 (Luke 3:23), therefore Jesus started His ministry between AD 24-25.
4. Jesus’ ministry covered three years on the earth (by counting Passover feasts in the Gospels), so Jesus dies at the age of 33, which means His death must have been between AD 27-28.
5. Jesus dies on a Thursday. The Gospels report Jesus was raised before sunrise on the first day of the week, Sunday (Luke 24:1), and He was in the grave three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40). Counting backward from Sunday, we find Jesus died during the daylight hours of a Thursday afternoon.
6. Passovers begin each year at sundown on the 14th day of the Jewish month of Nisan (new days begin at sundown by Jewish reckoning).
7. Consulting the astronomical records, we find only one year when Passover fell within the window of opportunity required by scripture. In AD 27 Passover began at 6:00 PM on Wednesday, April 9th.

Therefore, Jesus was crucified on Thursday, April 10, AD 27. The 2,000th anniversary of Jesus' death will take place on Saturday, April 10, 2027.​

The astronomical records are found here: https://www.versebyverseministry.org/downloads/fullmoons.pdf

Taken from: What date did Jesus die?

 

[agedman]

Of course some want The Christ to be crucified in 33 ad., the next typically used date of Friday crucifixion holders.

That would make Him approx as much as 38 to 39 years old, much farther than the estimated 32 to 35 scholarship suggests of his age.

 

[37818]

Really?

Can we know for sure the exact date of Jesus' death?

Based on the biblical record, we can determine the likely day of Jesus’ death:

1. Matthew says Jesus was born in the days of Herod the Great. History records that Herod died in 4 BC, so Jesus must be born on or before 4 BC. (Matthew 2:1)
2. Jesus was born about two years before Herod died (see Matthew 2:13-16), so Jesus was born around 6 BC.
3. Luke says Jesus started His ministry at the age of 30 (Luke 3:23), therefore Jesus started His ministry between AD 24-25.
4. Jesus’ ministry covered three years on the earth (by counting Passover feasts in the Gospels), so Jesus dies at the age of 33, which means His death must have been between AD 27-28.
5. Jesus dies on a Thursday. The Gospels report Jesus was raised before sunrise on the first day of the week, Sunday (Luke 24:1), and He was in the grave three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40). Counting backward from Sunday, we find Jesus died during the daylight hours of a Thursday afternoon.
6. Passovers begin each year at sundown on the 14th day of the Jewish month of Nisan (new days begin at sundown by Jewish reckoning).
7. Consulting the astronomical records, we find only one year when Passover fell within the window of opportunity required by scripture. In AD 27 Passover began at 6:00 PM on Wednesday, April 9th.

Therefore, Jesus was crucified on Thursday, April 10, AD 27. The 2,000th anniversary of Jesus' death will take place on Saturday, April 10, 2027.​

The astronomical records are found here: https://www.versebyverseministry.org/downloads/fullmoons.pdf

Taken from: What date did Jesus die?

Luke said about 30 years. ...ωσει... And ". . .in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, . . ." Which would be 28 A.D.. Luke 3.

33 ad

Sr Isaac Newton calculated that year. Mark 14:12 would cause the crucifixion that year to have been on the Sabbath! Which of course is not true.

 

[agedman]

Luke said about 30 years. ...ωσει... And ". . .in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, . . ." Which would be 28 A.D.. Luke 3.


Sr Isaac Newton calculated that year. Mark 14:12 would cause the crucifixion that year to have been on the Sabbath! Which of course is not true.

Then you are obliged to conform to a Thursday crucifixion are you not?

 

[37818]

Then you are obliged to conform to a Thursday crucifixion are you not?

Using a Julian date . . .

. . . April 6th 30 A.D., a Thursday.

 

[John of Japan]

It has long been my understanding that paradise was the upper compartment of Hades, Acts of the Apostles 2:27, where Jesus went before His bodily ressurection. Note where Abraham was above the lower place, Luke 16:23; Deuteronomy 32:22; Luke 16:31.

Sorry but Paradise is the garden of Eden transplanted to the New Jerusalem. Compare Rev. 2:7 with 22:2.

 

[John of Japan]

Luke 23:43 NLT
[43] And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise."

I was introduced to this possibility last week by a family member.

This is a different translation problem than most of you are use to. This is not about advanced Greek grammar or the arguing over which word to use or what a word actually means. For this translation, one really has to ask what was intended.

Personally, I would like it to be “before” because it feels nicer to jump straight to Heaven. However, when looking at this from the viewpoint of the context of the rest of the Bible and the Resurrection, I would have to say that “after” is most likely correct.

So state your cases and ponderings. I’m interested in others opinions on this except for the following:

1. KJVO - I realize that if one believes KJVO then one can say the KJVO says “before” and that is that. But if I don’t believe in KJVO, then you’re just talking past me and not to me.

2. Arguments from your vast knowledge of Greek concerning this passage. Arguments from the grammar rarely work. You will not convince me one way or the other using this method.

3. Any arguments from tradition from the birth of Augustine forward. Arguments from tradition won’t really convince me but may support a biblical position.

Now, nothing is stopping you from using these arguments and they may confirm what someone already believes, but I doubt it will change their minds. I ask that people don’t hijack the thread.

Nice problem.

My argument (today in Paradise) is not from the Greek grammar but from usage. The normal usage of semeron (today) in Greek in Luke when there is a quote is that it goes with the verb in the quote, not with the verb "said." See 5:26, 19:5, and especially 19:9. Other parallels include Mark 14:30, Heb. 3:7 & 15, James 4:13. So in the NT, the word invariably goes with the verb in the quote rather than "I say." There are no NT examples of "Today I say...."

Translators invariably put the comma before "today." I checked two Japanese translations, one Chinese, and several English, and they all have it the same. It's just much more natural that way.

 

[37818]

Sorry but Paradise is the garden of Eden transplanted to the New Jerusalem. Compare Rev. 2:7 with 22:2.

Jesus that day when He physically died went to Hades (compare 1 Peter 3:19-20; Genesis 6:2 ;1 Peter 4:6). Where the prophecy (Acts of the Apostles 2:27) says He would not be left in Shoel (Psalms 16:10). Abraham was in the upper compartment of Hades (Luke 16:23; Luke 16:31; Deuteronomy 32:22; Psalms 86:13). The argument is indeed a matter of interpretations.

 

[John of Japan]

Jesus that day when He physically died went to Hades (compare 1 Peter 3:19-20; Genesis 6:2 ;1 Peter 4:6). Where the prophecy (Acts of the Apostles 2:27) says He would not be left in Shoel (Psalms 16:10). Abraham was in the upper compartment of Hades (Luke 16:23; Luke 16:31; Deuteronomy 32:22; Psalms 86:13). The argument is indeed a matter of interpretations.

Yes, but you see, not a single one of your references has the word "Paradise" in it.

The Greek word paradeisos is a loan word from Persian, and is defined thusly in Friberg's lexicon: "a park, a Persian word brought in by Xen.; used for the garden of Eden, Paradise, N.T." So Xenophon used the word to refer to the special garden of the King of Persia wherein he hunted tame animals. That doesn't fit the term "Abraham's bosom" in the slightest, but it does fit the Garden of Eden (called "Paradise" in Jewish literature), now in the New Jerusalem.

Again, Paul was "caught up into Paradise" (1 Cor. 12:4), but Hades is down.

 

[John of Japan]

Luke 23:43 NLT
[43]
2. Arguments from your vast knowledge of Greek concerning this passage. Arguments from the grammar rarely work. You will not convince me one way or the other using this method.

Has anyone mentioned to you the verbal aspect of the Greek word for "I say" (lego) in the verse? It's a present active indicative. Here it is arguably imperfective aspect, meaning it could be translated "I am saying (right now) to you." It would seem very strange for Jesus to say "Today I am saying" when it quite obviously is today when "I am saying." After all, it is a present tense.... This is no doubt why every single translation I've consulted has the comma before "Today." Have you been able to find a translation that does it the other way?

 

[37818]

Yes, but you see, not a single one of your references has the word "Paradise" in it.

The Greek word paradeisos is a loan word from Persian, and is defined thusly in Friberg's lexicon: "a park, a Persian word brought in by Xen.; used for the garden of Eden, Paradise, N.T." So Xenophon used the word to refer to the special garden of the King of Persia wherein he hunted tame animals. That doesn't fit the term "Abraham's bosom" in the slightest, but it does fit the Garden of Eden (called "Paradise" in Jewish literature), now in the New Jerusalem.

Again, Paul was "caught up into Paradise" (1 Cor. 12:4), but Hades is down.

Again, where talking interpetations. When Jesus acsended, paradise, being interpreted, not stated, interpreted to be the upper comparment of Sheol/Hades, where the OT saints where, paradise with the OT saints where moved to the third Heaven to be with Christ our mediator, Ephesians 4:8; Psalms 68:18. Remember Jesus physically died and went to Hades, had said to that thief, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." By interptetation, identifying paradise being in Hades.

 

[John of Japan]

Again, where talking interpetations. When Jesus acsended, paradise, being interpreted, not stated, interpreted to be the upper comparment of Sheol/Hades, where the OT saints where, paradise with the OT saints where moved to the third Heaven to be with Christ our mediator, Ephesians 4:8; Psalms 68:18. Remember Jesus physically died and went to Hades, had said to that thief, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." By interptetation, identifying paradise being in Hades.

Did you look up my two NT references in Revelation? While you do your interpretations (no offense), these verses seem pretty conclusive to me about where Paradise is.

Rev. 2:7, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev. 22:2, "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

 

[37818]

Has anyone mentioned to you the verbal aspect of the Greek word for "I say" (lego) in the verse? It's a present active indicative. Here it is arguably imperfective aspect, meaning it could be translated "I am saying (right now) to you." It would seem very strange for Jesus to say "Today I am saying" when it quite obviously is today when "I am saying." After all, it is a present tense.... This is no doubt why every single translation I've consulted has the comma before "Today." Have you been able to find a translation that does it the other way?

The NWT, "And he said to him: 'Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.'" But most translations the adverb "today" is translated modifying the verb "will be."

 

[John of Japan]

The NWT. But most translations the adverb "today" is translated modifying the verb "shalt thou be."

And there you have it. The NWT is notoriously slanted towards their theology. I once had a disagreement with their Japanese translator over pisteuo, "to believe," which they generally translated into Japanese as "cause your faith to work. (He wrote me about it, giving their reasons.)

 

[37818]

Did you look up my two NT references in Revelation?

Yes.