Common Ground Clavinist, Armenien

I Am Blessed 24 · Aug 2, 2007

PastorFaulk said:

Is there a world where Calvinist believers can get together and agree with Armenians?
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Yes. It's called Heaven. raying: :saint:

webdog · Aug 2, 2007

Major B said:

Get your heresies straight. The hyper-dispensationalist position on Romans is about Romans 9-11, not 8-10. Romans 8 teaches on a lot of things that are vital to every believer, not just about the Grace question (sanctification, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the ministry of the Spirit to all of God's people, etc. ) Paul starts addressing Israel in 9:1, but not Israel exclusively. The hyper-dispensationalist erasure of scripture by the "Israel" card concerns chapters 9-11. Paul is talking in 9-11 about his own grappling with the issue of his lost loved ones (Israel), but not exclusively about them. Indeed, Romans 10:9-10 refers to "the Word of Faith that we preach," and only the most hyper of hyper-dispies would say that Paul preached two different gospels, one for Israel and one for the church. Romans 9-11 teaches that gentile believers have been grafted into Israel, not that we have replaced Israel, but that some of the branches were cut off to allow us to be grafted in. "Rightly dividing the word of Truth" can never be implemented with a hatchet. You cannot escape Romans 8:28-39 with the Israel Card, and much of 9-11 is also univerally applicable. The hyper-dispie, hyper-arminian views are just as incorrect as the hyper-calvinist views.

When the Bible says that Christ "tasted death for every man," that is universal. When the Bible says that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, that is the whole world. Similarly, when the word "elect" is used, or "election" or any of the synonyms, it usually is talking about individuals, not nations, and when it does talk about national Israel, that does not solve any problems for those who want to deny God's Sovereignty in salvation, rather it creates more problems. There are paradoxes hard to understand (2 pet 3:15-18) in Paul's writings, but that does not give us the right to cut out of the Bible parts that we don't like. And, as Page Patterson says, we cannot escape the universal nature of the atonement by the "facile handling" of texts we don't like. If "Jabob I have loved and Esau I have hated" offends you, you only reduce the scope of the problem by attempting to erase it with the Israel Visa Card--it still raises questions.

As with the Trinity, there are some things we just must believe, whether we understand them or not (Job discovered this--Job 42:1-6). For me, the important distinction is this: God tells us some things because He wants us to believe them and know they are true (usually to destroy our pride), and He tells us some things because He wants us to do something about them. Any understanding of this issue which causes "calvinists" to back off one inch from the spreading of the Gospel is wrong. Similarly, any understanding of this issue which places one iota of our salvation as being "our contribution" is wrong. God did not tell us about Rom 8:28-39, Eph 1:3-14, 1 Thes 1:1-10, etc., to cause us to back off in our soulwinning--He told us those things to humble us before Him. Similarly, He did not tell us about Mat 28:19-20 to cause us to generate some plan of man to win the lost, but to give us HIS way to win the lost.

Instead of not reading and studying the parts you don't like, deal with them, you may find out that you are neither calvinist nor arminian.
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You are right, that is was chapters 9 - 11. I typed that very late. To call my position on that heresy, though, is foolish...and labels MANY godly men throughout history (Paul included) as such.

Instead of reading the Bible through a systematic theological position...try studying it with an open mind (and leave the inflamatory language out of the discussion.)

I'm not a hyper arminian or hyper dispie, either. Please don't refer to me as such.

2 Timothy2:1-4 · Aug 2, 2007

I have seen a number of threads started to squelch misconceptions of Calvinism. The biggest misconception held by calvinists of those who hold to the biblical view of grace and free will is that thye are Arminian. This is in error.

Dr. Bob · Aug 2, 2007

The BB requests folks NOT use the word "heresy" when speaking of issues of genuine theological differences.

Major B - shot across your bow. Spouting hate speech and intentional misinformation will get your posts clipped. There is enough basis of discussion without that.

Thanks to all for keeping in the spirit of discussion.

EdSutton · Aug 2, 2007

Language Cop says he is neither "Clavinist" nor "Armenien".

He suggests the use of SpelChek™.

Ed

Major B · Aug 2, 2007

webdog said:

You are right, that is was chapters 9 - 11. I typed that very late. To call my position on that heresy, though, is foolish...and labels MANY godly men throughout history (Paul included) as such.

Instead of reading the Bible through a systematic theological position...try studying it with an open mind (and leave the inflamatory language out of the discussion.)

I'm not a hyper arminian or hyper dispie, either. Please don't refer to me as such.
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I apologize, did not mean to be so short. I haven't referred to any systematics here, but to the central idea you put forth, which does come real close to a match of the Hyper dispie line, that Rom 9-11 was about Israel only. That is manifestly not the case, as Paul's own words establish. I should have my coffee in the AM before posting.

Major B · Aug 2, 2007

Dr. Bob said:

The BB requests folks NOT use the word "heresy" when speaking of issues of genuine theological differences.

Major B - shot across your bow. Spouting hate speech and intentional misinformation will get your posts clipped. There is enough basis of discussion without that.

Thanks to all for keeping in the spirit of discussion.
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I was not trying to misinform anyone, but Sorry 'bout that--I've been dealing with some real heresies lately that have moved into our area (The Joel Hemphill, "Jesus is not God" heresy, and some honest-to-goodness Sandemanians believe it or not, who split off from a church where I am doing interim work), I will put the cover back on the tip.

Charley:thumbs:

Plain Old Bill · Aug 4, 2007

I like that a 0 point calvinist. I suppose that works for armiians also . So now I can take a stand a say foe sure one-hundered percent :
I am a calvinist 0 point.
I am an Arminian 0 point.
I am a calminian 0 point.
I am a 100% Biblicist.:tonofbricks: :laugh: I love my Calvinist,Arminian,and calminian brothers and sisters 100%.

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