-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Common pastoral errors
- Thread starter npetreley
- Start date
Revmitchell said:
I think the issue of 1 Cor 11 is very obvious. If a pastor is so stubborn about it that he refuses to admit that he has adopted a tradition rather than communicate what the Bible really says, then I think that pastor has a problem. Whether or not the problem is serious enough to leave the church is debatable and depends on more than just this one issue.
RE: Jesus and the tithe
Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
DeafPosttrib said:
Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
I don't know if I would consider this an "error," but I get frustrated whenever a preacher does a generic "altar call" such as "If you feel that you are not as close to God as you should be, then please come forward and kneel at the altar." Who wouldn't be as close to God as one should be? I am not sure if these are just attempts to make sweeping applications to get large numbers to come forward, or what.
Aresman,
Hello. Since Jesus did not do away with the law please provide me with a verse that says you don't need to tithe.
Where in have you robbed me? In tithes and offerings.
1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. Was Paul suggesting more or less than a tithe?
I suggest you look up the usage of the word 'store' it nearly always applies to 'more than is necessary' and in its context would mean that which is above the usual (tithe) 'that there be no gatherings when I come', 'I will bring your liberality'.
To teach something other than the tithe is misleading to the people and in my opinion is dishonest after all how can we teach that there is our way and God's way on everything but money?
blessings
thjplgvp
Hello. Since Jesus did not do away with the law please provide me with a verse that says you don't need to tithe.
Where in have you robbed me? In tithes and offerings.
1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. Was Paul suggesting more or less than a tithe?
I suggest you look up the usage of the word 'store' it nearly always applies to 'more than is necessary' and in its context would mean that which is above the usual (tithe) 'that there be no gatherings when I come', 'I will bring your liberality'.
To teach something other than the tithe is misleading to the people and in my opinion is dishonest after all how can we teach that there is our way and God's way on everything but money?
blessings
thjplgvp
DeafPosttrib said:
The NT teaches stewardship. It really goes deeper than the OT principles of 10%. The OT principle is was Jesus spoke of on the demascus road. One will feel he has given his all once his 10% is in the plate and miss the true essence of stewardship. Money is a minut part, you also need to give your time, charity, love etc...
Now, here is the example of NT giving. It might make you appreciate a preacher who just ask for 10%.
Acts 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
The next chapter shows the penalty;
5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
Last edited by a moderator:
I cannot understand why pastors and other Christians use 1 Cor. 16:2 as a proof text for tithing. The context for this passage is set forth in verse 1:
"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye." Paul is talking about a love offering for the believers in Jerusalem who are suffering, not about tithing.
npetreley said:
You have made an assumption that a pastor who believes in this way can only be doing it from tradition rather than a sincere conviction. It is possible and it is reasonable that any christian would believe 1 Cor 11 is speaking of sin.
What is not reasonable is a church member who is willing to disrespect their God given spiritual authority which in turn disrespects God. Just because the Pastor is incorrect on a matter does not displace his authority in your life. I see a bigger problem with your attitude than with the pastor who holds on to tradition. It is rebellious. If you want someone to swallow humble pie you can begin with your self.
canadyjd said:How about, "you must have faith in the shed blood of Jesus to be saved"?
I thought you had to have faith in Jesus. I know He shed his blood for sinners, but faith has an object. Rightly speaking, the object is Jesus, not His blood.
peace to youraying:
This is the philosophy of man, and a lie straight from the pit of hell.
We have just been talking about the Lords' Supper. What is it that you think is being remembered in the Lords' supper? What does the bible tell us that washes us clean from our sins? It is his blood.
Sin, hell, Satan, the blood, the cross, heaven, redemption, eternilty,all need to be preached. Without the shed blood of Christ Christianity falls apart.
A guy who had been stranded on a deserted island for three years was finally rescued. Upon arrival of the ships Captain, the Captain asked the man about the three huts up on the beach by the tree line. The man said "Well, the one in the middle is my house. That is where I slept and hid from the rain. The one on the right is my church. I go there to worship God as he would have me too".
The ships Captain asked "What is the one on the left for?" "OH!"replied the man being rescued. "That used to be my church until I got mad and changed churches.":thumbs:
The ships Captain asked "What is the one on the left for?" "OH!"replied the man being rescued. "That used to be my church until I got mad and changed churches.":thumbs:
Understanding the Biblical tithe
The church "tithing" mandate that is so commonly preached today is based on faulty assumptions, misunderstanding, and tradition. The Bible clearly defines of what is being spoken concerning a "tithe" in many different places. If one truly wishes to study this subject deeply and read (and re-read) all the passages that speak of the tithe, one can get a clearer grasp of what exactly it was, who it was for, when it was practiced, and who it is not for.
Let's look at all the tithing passages, shall we.
Tithing in the Old Testament
Abraham pays tithes to Melchizedek
In Genesis chapter 14, we have the account of the battle between five kings and four kings in which Lot is rescued. Melchizedek, king of Salem, gives Abram bread and wine; Abram gives Melchizedek tithes of all the spoils of the war. The other nine-tenths he gives back to the king of Sodom. Abram kept none of these spoils for himself.
A few things we learn here:
1. Abram was not commanded to give these tithes to Melchizedek. He gave them freely.
2. The tithes were of the spoils of war, and were not of Abram's own wealth.
3. Abram gave the rest to the king of Sodom and kept none for himself.
4. Nothing is mentioned here about a command to anyone; there is no tithing on earned income
Jacob makes a tenth covenant with God
In Genesis chapter 28, Jacob has the vision of the ladder (staircase) to heaven. This vision was God showing His promise to Jacob that he was chosen (rather than the firstborn Esau) to be the one through which the promised seed would come. As Jacob wakes up, he makes a covenant with God that if God would sustain him and restore peace with his family, he would give God a tenth of what He would provide for the promise.
A few things we learn here:
1. Jacob was not commanded to give a tenth to God.
2. This one was a conditional promise.
3. There is no record of whether the vow actually was fulfilled. This is left to speculation.
The church "tithing" mandate that is so commonly preached today is based on faulty assumptions, misunderstanding, and tradition. The Bible clearly defines of what is being spoken concerning a "tithe" in many different places. If one truly wishes to study this subject deeply and read (and re-read) all the passages that speak of the tithe, one can get a clearer grasp of what exactly it was, who it was for, when it was practiced, and who it is not for.
Let's look at all the tithing passages, shall we.
Tithing in the Old Testament
Abraham pays tithes to Melchizedek
In Genesis chapter 14, we have the account of the battle between five kings and four kings in which Lot is rescued. Melchizedek, king of Salem, gives Abram bread and wine; Abram gives Melchizedek tithes of all the spoils of the war. The other nine-tenths he gives back to the king of Sodom. Abram kept none of these spoils for himself.
A few things we learn here:
1. Abram was not commanded to give these tithes to Melchizedek. He gave them freely.
2. The tithes were of the spoils of war, and were not of Abram's own wealth.
3. Abram gave the rest to the king of Sodom and kept none for himself.
4. Nothing is mentioned here about a command to anyone; there is no tithing on earned income
Jacob makes a tenth covenant with God
In Genesis chapter 28, Jacob has the vision of the ladder (staircase) to heaven. This vision was God showing His promise to Jacob that he was chosen (rather than the firstborn Esau) to be the one through which the promised seed would come. As Jacob wakes up, he makes a covenant with God that if God would sustain him and restore peace with his family, he would give God a tenth of what He would provide for the promise.
A few things we learn here:
1. Jacob was not commanded to give a tenth to God.
2. This one was a conditional promise.
3. There is no record of whether the vow actually was fulfilled. This is left to speculation.
Understanding the Biblical tithe
Tithe laws part 1: Leviticus 27:30-34
A few things we learn here:
1. There is a tithe of the gound and a tithe of the herd.
2. The tithe of the ground could be redeemed by paying its value plus 20%; the tithe of the herd could not be redeemed. This was important because the tithe of the herd would be used for Levitical sacrifices.
3. This was for the children of Israel.
4. There is no mention of money.
Tithe laws part 2: Numbers 18:20-32
A few things we learn here:
1. The tithe was given to the Levites as their inheritance because they were given no land inheritance.
2. The Levites were to tithe from their tithes to the priest(s).
3. The tithes were for eating. There was no money here: only crops and livestock.
Tithe laws part 3: Deuteronomy 12
This is too long of a portion to post in its entirety.
A few things we learn here:
1. Tithes were brought to the place which God would put His name. We find out later that this was Jerusalem.
2. This was a celebration. It could be called "the feast of tithes." This was an annual occasion where everyone brought the tithe of their crops and livestock and shared and ate together and praised the Lord.
3. Unlike any other time, during the feast of tithes, the Jews were permitted to eat any meat that they wanted--clean and unclean--yet not to eat the blood.
4. If Jerusalem was too far to travel for a family, they could have their own local tithe feast.
Tithe laws part 4: Deuteronomy 14
A few things we learn here:
1. This is kind of a continuation of chapter 12. It is an annual feast in Jerusalem. Only another option is present for those who could not make the trip with their substance: they could convert the tithe to money, bring the money to the place of worship, and exchange the money for titheable commodities: whatsoever their souls lusted after, including strong drink. The tithe feast was a time of rejoicing.
2. They were to share this tithe with the Levites, the fatherless, the widows, and the strangers within their gates.
3. There was another tithe every third year in which they laid a tithe outside their gates for the needy to glean.
Tithe laws part 5: Deuteronomy 6:10-12
A few things we learn here:
1. The tithes were of the firstfruits of harvest.
2. Once again, the tithe is eaten in a collective feast of sharing and rejoicing.
3. It is shared with the Levite, the fatherless, the widows, and the strangers.
4. Every third year was the heap tithe for the same people to glean from.
Tithe laws part 1: Leviticus 27:30-34
A few things we learn here:
1. There is a tithe of the gound and a tithe of the herd.
2. The tithe of the ground could be redeemed by paying its value plus 20%; the tithe of the herd could not be redeemed. This was important because the tithe of the herd would be used for Levitical sacrifices.
3. This was for the children of Israel.
4. There is no mention of money.
Tithe laws part 2: Numbers 18:20-32
A few things we learn here:
1. The tithe was given to the Levites as their inheritance because they were given no land inheritance.
2. The Levites were to tithe from their tithes to the priest(s).
3. The tithes were for eating. There was no money here: only crops and livestock.
Tithe laws part 3: Deuteronomy 12
This is too long of a portion to post in its entirety.
A few things we learn here:
1. Tithes were brought to the place which God would put His name. We find out later that this was Jerusalem.
2. This was a celebration. It could be called "the feast of tithes." This was an annual occasion where everyone brought the tithe of their crops and livestock and shared and ate together and praised the Lord.
3. Unlike any other time, during the feast of tithes, the Jews were permitted to eat any meat that they wanted--clean and unclean--yet not to eat the blood.
4. If Jerusalem was too far to travel for a family, they could have their own local tithe feast.
Tithe laws part 4: Deuteronomy 14
A few things we learn here:
1. This is kind of a continuation of chapter 12. It is an annual feast in Jerusalem. Only another option is present for those who could not make the trip with their substance: they could convert the tithe to money, bring the money to the place of worship, and exchange the money for titheable commodities: whatsoever their souls lusted after, including strong drink. The tithe feast was a time of rejoicing.
2. They were to share this tithe with the Levites, the fatherless, the widows, and the strangers within their gates.
3. There was another tithe every third year in which they laid a tithe outside their gates for the needy to glean.
Tithe laws part 5: Deuteronomy 6:10-12
A few things we learn here:
1. The tithes were of the firstfruits of harvest.
2. Once again, the tithe is eaten in a collective feast of sharing and rejoicing.
3. It is shared with the Levite, the fatherless, the widows, and the strangers.
4. Every third year was the heap tithe for the same people to glean from.
Understanding the Biblical tithe
Return to the tithe laws part 1: II Chronicles 31:4-12
A few things we learn here:
1. King Hezekiah brought the nation of Israel back to observing the Law.
2. Instead of the third year, the people zealously gave the heap tithe in the third month.
3. There was so much left that the streets were getting crowded. They needed to store this excess.
4. Hezekiah commands to bring them into the storehouse of the Temple chambers for efficiency reasons. This was not commanded by the Law, but was good stewardship.
Return to the tithe laws part 2: Nehemiah 10:37-39; 12:44; 13:5,11-12
A few things we learn here:
1. There is still no mention of money. Tithing was all about food and sacrifices.
2. Tithing was to be given to the Levites. Levites were then to tithe on these to the priest(s).
3. Tithing came from the "cities of tillage" (i.e. if you didn't make the food you didn't provide the tithe).
4. This is continuing the Temple storehouse regulation under Hezekiah; again, it was not part of the Law, but it made the new system more efficient.
Return to the tithe laws part 1: II Chronicles 31:4-12
A few things we learn here:
1. King Hezekiah brought the nation of Israel back to observing the Law.
2. Instead of the third year, the people zealously gave the heap tithe in the third month.
3. There was so much left that the streets were getting crowded. They needed to store this excess.
4. Hezekiah commands to bring them into the storehouse of the Temple chambers for efficiency reasons. This was not commanded by the Law, but was good stewardship.
Return to the tithe laws part 2: Nehemiah 10:37-39; 12:44; 13:5,11-12
A few things we learn here:
1. There is still no mention of money. Tithing was all about food and sacrifices.
2. Tithing was to be given to the Levites. Levites were then to tithe on these to the priest(s).
3. Tithing came from the "cities of tillage" (i.e. if you didn't make the food you didn't provide the tithe).
4. This is continuing the Temple storehouse regulation under Hezekiah; again, it was not part of the Law, but it made the new system more efficient.
Understanding the Biblical tithe
Tithes and offerings forsaken: Amos 4:4, Malachi chapters 1-3
A few things we can learn here:
1. Bethel and Gilgal were not the place where the Lord put His name.
2. He was giving a sarcastic "command" to Judah to keep doing what they were doing and disobeying the law.
Now at last we get to Malachi. It is wise to read chapters 1-3 entirely to get the context.
A few things we can learn:
1. The children of Israel, intermixed pagan practices with the worship of Jehovah in violation of the Law. They offered polluted bread and blemish beasts upon the altar.
2. They also tried to appease God by having the altar burning with no sacrifice.
A few things we can learn here:
1. God starts talking to the priests. It is not exactly clear when this stops.
2. The priests were profaning the altar and disregarding the Levitical covenant and deceiving the people about the Law.
A few things we can learn here:
1. God is still talking about priests, Levites, Judah, Jerusalem, Israel, and nation here.
2. They were robbing God in tithes and offerings. In the previous chapters we saw how they were robbing God of offerings: by offering polluted bread and blemished beasts.
3. We see the context tells how they were robbing God of tithes. They were no longer bringing the tithes into the storehouse set up under Hezekiah. They were forsaking the fatherless, widows, and strangers.
4. They were cursed with a curse. This curse was made clear in chapter 2 and shown here. They were not receiving adequate rain and they were not delightsome and prosperouse. Foreigners were coming and destroying their crops.
5. God promised to "open the windows of heaven." The can be seen as rain, where in Genesis chapter 6, the flood of Noah was described as the "windows of heaven were opened." God said He would pour them out a blessing: they would get the needed rain and be the land of milk and honey again.
Tithes and offerings forsaken: Amos 4:4, Malachi chapters 1-3
A few things we can learn here:
1. Bethel and Gilgal were not the place where the Lord put His name.
2. He was giving a sarcastic "command" to Judah to keep doing what they were doing and disobeying the law.
Now at last we get to Malachi. It is wise to read chapters 1-3 entirely to get the context.
A few things we can learn:
1. The children of Israel, intermixed pagan practices with the worship of Jehovah in violation of the Law. They offered polluted bread and blemish beasts upon the altar.
2. They also tried to appease God by having the altar burning with no sacrifice.
A few things we can learn here:
1. God starts talking to the priests. It is not exactly clear when this stops.
2. The priests were profaning the altar and disregarding the Levitical covenant and deceiving the people about the Law.
A few things we can learn here:
1. God is still talking about priests, Levites, Judah, Jerusalem, Israel, and nation here.
2. They were robbing God in tithes and offerings. In the previous chapters we saw how they were robbing God of offerings: by offering polluted bread and blemished beasts.
3. We see the context tells how they were robbing God of tithes. They were no longer bringing the tithes into the storehouse set up under Hezekiah. They were forsaking the fatherless, widows, and strangers.
4. They were cursed with a curse. This curse was made clear in chapter 2 and shown here. They were not receiving adequate rain and they were not delightsome and prosperouse. Foreigners were coming and destroying their crops.
5. God promised to "open the windows of heaven." The can be seen as rain, where in Genesis chapter 6, the flood of Noah was described as the "windows of heaven were opened." God said He would pour them out a blessing: they would get the needed rain and be the land of milk and honey again.
Understanding the Biblical tithe
Tithing in the New Testament
Jesus rebukes the scribes and Pharisees: Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42
A few things we can learn here:
1. Even still in the New Testament, there is no mention of tithing money.
2. The scribes and Pharisees were tithing of little spices. In their hypocrisy they were overstepping what the Law required in tithing, and were neglecting the spirit of the Law.
3. When Jesus told them "this ought ye to have done" He was telling them that although they didn't have to tithe of these spices, if they were going to do such, it was good but they should have done that without neglecting the important things.
I'll get to the rest later, including Hebrews 7. From what we have learned so far, we can see that tithing was a very specific ceremonial law to the theocratic nation of Israel as somewhat of a tax on farmers, and a welfare system for the Levites and the needy. There is never one mention of tithing monetary income in the Bible. Money was only as a medium of conversion or for redeeming tithes.
In Deuteronomy chapter 14, the surrounding context talks about dietary laws and releasing debts every seven years and fiftieth year. If we as church people are obligated to tithe money to the church, why aren't we required to do these other things that are almost joined to it? Why rip one part of the Law out and twist it and contort it into a context that bears little similarity to its original and reglect the other parts of the Law?
Tithing in the New Testament
Jesus rebukes the scribes and Pharisees: Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42
A few things we can learn here:
1. Even still in the New Testament, there is no mention of tithing money.
2. The scribes and Pharisees were tithing of little spices. In their hypocrisy they were overstepping what the Law required in tithing, and were neglecting the spirit of the Law.
3. When Jesus told them "this ought ye to have done" He was telling them that although they didn't have to tithe of these spices, if they were going to do such, it was good but they should have done that without neglecting the important things.
I'll get to the rest later, including Hebrews 7. From what we have learned so far, we can see that tithing was a very specific ceremonial law to the theocratic nation of Israel as somewhat of a tax on farmers, and a welfare system for the Levites and the needy. There is never one mention of tithing monetary income in the Bible. Money was only as a medium of conversion or for redeeming tithes.
In Deuteronomy chapter 14, the surrounding context talks about dietary laws and releasing debts every seven years and fiftieth year. If we as church people are obligated to tithe money to the church, why aren't we required to do these other things that are almost joined to it? Why rip one part of the Law out and twist it and contort it into a context that bears little similarity to its original and reglect the other parts of the Law?
AresMan said:
Especially in congregations where pastors are the ones handling and disbursing the tithes and offerings and the teaching that the tithe is for the pastor's use is swallowed hook. line, and sinker.
RE:tithe
Aresman,
First of all I appreciate all your work in compiling the info included in your posts and I did read each of them. Not to scorn your effort nor the spirit in which the info was given I would like to ask this question.
In a barter system as seen in the Old Testament in comparison to the New Testament would it not be logical to move from farming and herding to a current system of finance? I am old enough to remember my grand parents trading livestock and feed as marketable commodities but today we barter with money.
If you are a pastor would it be convenient for you to barter goods given you by the church family or would it be convenient for them to give money?
The world has changed from yesteryear and though money was not specifically called for what was called for was commonly accepted by all in normal every day barter or they could not have sold it and the people would not have eaten it.
What do you suggest that we teach today considering less than 7% (according to Barna) of church goers give any thing let alone a 'tithe'?
Is it not proper to teach minimum responsibility and name 10% as that minimum not as a command per se but as a responsibility? Was not the care of the Levites, the Levitical cities and the priests the responsibility of Israel? And is not the care of the local church and the leadership in that church the responsibility of its members? Is not the laborer worthy of his hire?
If I teach tithing is it sin or is it in the spirit of teaching folks how to be responsible?
Thanks again for your posts.
thjplgvp
Aresman,
First of all I appreciate all your work in compiling the info included in your posts and I did read each of them. Not to scorn your effort nor the spirit in which the info was given I would like to ask this question.
In a barter system as seen in the Old Testament in comparison to the New Testament would it not be logical to move from farming and herding to a current system of finance? I am old enough to remember my grand parents trading livestock and feed as marketable commodities but today we barter with money.
If you are a pastor would it be convenient for you to barter goods given you by the church family or would it be convenient for them to give money?
The world has changed from yesteryear and though money was not specifically called for what was called for was commonly accepted by all in normal every day barter or they could not have sold it and the people would not have eaten it.
What do you suggest that we teach today considering less than 7% (according to Barna) of church goers give any thing let alone a 'tithe'?
Is it not proper to teach minimum responsibility and name 10% as that minimum not as a command per se but as a responsibility? Was not the care of the Levites, the Levitical cities and the priests the responsibility of Israel? And is not the care of the local church and the leadership in that church the responsibility of its members? Is not the laborer worthy of his hire?
If I teach tithing is it sin or is it in the spirit of teaching folks how to be responsible?
Thanks again for your posts.
thjplgvp