Communion Controversy

[Mark Osgatharp]

Latterrain,

The Bible says the church is the body of Christ in Ephesians chapter 1 and I Corinthians chapter 12. The Bible never speaks of any "church" other than a congregation of baptized believers.

Joshua,

The Lord ate a common meal with those people, who, by the way, came to Him in repentance, not rebellion. By contrast, Paul explicitly instructed the Lord's churches by the authority of Jesus Christ not to eat with a brother who was involved in unrepentant immorality.

There are some of us who do not lie when profess to believe in the Bible and we take what Paul said just as seriously as what Jesus did - and there is no conflict between the two.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[DocCas]

Originally posted by latterrain77:
Hi Mark. Please tell me why I'm wrong. Chapter and verse please. Thanks Mark.

latterrain77

latterrain77, you are the one who claims the body of Christ is made up of all the redeemed. The burden of proof is on you. Chapter and verse please.

[ September 07, 2002, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: DocCas ]

 

[latterrain77]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Latterrain,

The Bible says the church is the body of Christ in Ephesians chapter 1 and I Corinthians chapter 12. The Bible never speaks of any "church" other than a congregation of baptized believers.

Hi Mark. Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your taking the time to provide your thoughts.

In your recent post, you say that the church is the body of Christ. But that is not what you said in your original post. You said in your original post, and I quote, “Since the body of Christ is a local congregation of baptized believers" , then that is the capacity in which the supper should be celebrated.” (emphasis is mine).

A local congregation is NOT the body of Christ. Not at all! I’m glad that you now see that.

“There is one body and one Spirit–just as you were called to one hope when you were called–“ (Eph. 4: 4). ONE BODY! Not two, not three, not a zillion. ONE! That one body church is NOT Mark’s congregation, Latterain’s congregation, or the congregation of DocCass. It is the worldwide body of believers. The body of Christ is NOT a church building either. The body of Christ is ONE, singular and worldwide in scope.

“And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy" (Col. 1: 18). The church body is singular. It is NOT plural as in bodies. Each local congregation is NOT the Body of Christ. If that were true, there would be a whole lot of bodies of Christ. The Bible won’t permit this. The true body of Christ is SINGULAR.

“Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.” (Col. 1: 24). The LORD’s body which is the CHURCH - Singular. Not plural.

“This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.” (Eph. 3: 6). ONE BODY. The singular body of Christ is comprised of a worldwide membership that ranges from every nation across the globe. A local congregation is NOT the body of Christ.

That is precisely why the evangelical call is to GO YE into ALL of the WORLD … (Mark 16: 15-16).

Finally, you said; "The Bible never speaks of any "church" other than a congregation of baptized believers."

Try telling that to Christ when he spoke to the thief on the Cross! (Luke 23: 39-43).

Thank you again Mark. Have a terrific Sunday!

latterrain77

 

[DocCas]

One body of believers at Ephesis, and one body of believers at Corinth, one body of believers at . . . and so forth. Paul is very clear in his terminology. The "one body" refers to the unity of the local assembly, not to a universial, invisible, eccumenical, mystical "universal church body." Of the 114 times the word church is used in the bible (I will use the KJV as an example) 99 times it is in reference to a geographical area, I.E., the church at Corinth, the church at Thessalonica, the church at Sardis, etc. Of the remaining 15 times the word is used, one it refers to the local assembly of Jews in the wilderness, and the other 14 times it is used generically, refering to no local church in particular, all local churches in general. That is the facts. You can believe them or reject them, but that is the facts.

 

[latterrain77]

Hi DocCass. So then, which one is the REAL singular Body of Christ? Is it Ephesus? Is it Corinth? Which one? The Bible is brazenly clear that the body of Christ can ONLY be ONE! A singular head works best on a singular body.

No one is talking about an "ecumenical" anything. The REAL body of Christ is made up of TRUE individual Believers from ALL over the world. It has nothing to do with denominational or congregational garbage. Any Baptist knows that. That is OUR history!

“There is ONE BODY and one Spirit–just as you were called to one hope when you were called–“ (Eph. 4: 4). ONE BODY!

“This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of ONE BODY, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.” (Eph. 3: 6). ONE BODY!

So we, being many, are ONE BODY in Christ, and every one members one of another. (Rom. 12: 5) ONE BODY!

Thanks Doc!

latterrain77

[ September 08, 2002, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

[DocCas]

Once again you have read something into the text which is not there. The church at Ephesus is a body of baptized believers belonging to Christ. They are united, one, in Christ. The church at Corinth is a body of baptized believers belonging to Christ, they are united, one, in Christ.

Again I ask, where is your scriptural proof that there is only one (numerical) body of baptized believers belonging to Christ? Do you believe the school you attened is the only school in the world with a student body? Do you believe the body politic here in the United States is the only body politic in the world? After all, our national motto is "E Pluribus Unum." Are we the only one (unum) or are there other bodies politic which are united, as one nation?

 

[latterrain77]

Hi DocCass. Thank you for your reply. And you said MY comments were “mystical” Doc? The idea that a “corporate congregation" is the body of Christ is about as mystically Roman as it can get.

It is the INDIVIDUAL person, from every corner of the earth, who makes up the singular body of Christ. The body of CHRIST is NOT a hodge-podge collection of congregational corporations (tax exempt of course) that make up the body of Christ – NOT AT ALL! That is what ROME believes. Such an idea has the fragrance of Rome all over it.

The singular body of CHRIST is comprised of every singular individual believer, separate and distinct from each other, from every inch of our glorious America – along with - every individual believer in every NATION around the Globe. Only as a SAVED individual believer can we become a member of HIS body.

A “local congregation” corporation does NOT get baptized into the body of anything other than the pastor’s pocket. Only Individuals from ALL over the world are baptized into the body of Christ (Mark 16: 15-16).

As for chapter and verse – I have already provided a number of Chapters and Verses.

Doc, I have never heard another Baptist (Fundamental or Liberal) claim that the “local congregations” are the body of Christ – until you and Mark.

latterrain77

 

[DocCas]

Originally posted by latterrain77:
Hi DocCass. Thank you for your reply. And you said MY comments were “mystical” Doc? The idea that a “corporate congregation" is the body of Christ is about as mystically Roman as it can get.

Ad hominem, attempt to link me with the RCC and thus guilt by association.

It is the INDIVIDUAL person, from every corner of the earth, who makes up the singular body of Christ.

Chapter and verse, please.

The body of CHRIST is NOT a hodge-podge collection of congregational corporations (tax exempt of course) that make up the body of Christ – NOT AT ALL!

Straw man argumentation, nobody has claimed the body of Christ is a hodge-podge collection of congregations. I clearly said that each local assembly is a local body of baptized believers belonging to the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is what ROME believes.

More ad hominem, and again, a dishonest attempt to link me to Rome and thus guilt by association.

Such an idea has the fragrance of Rome all over it.

More ad hominem, and yet again, a dishonest attempt to link me to Rome and thus guilt by association.

The singular body of CHRIST is comprised of every singular individual believer, separate and distinct from each other, from every inch of our glorious America – along with - every individual believer in every NATION around the Globe.

Scripture please.

Only as a SAVED individual believer can we become a member of HIS body.

Exactly what I said. Each local assembly is a local body of baptized believers belonging to Christ.

A “local congregation” corporation does NOT get baptized into the body of anything other than the pastor’s pocket.

Vicious, scurrilous and slanderous accusation against every godly pastor who labors long and out of love for the Lord. Shame on you!

Only Individuals from ALL over the world are baptized into the body of Christ (Mark 16: 15-16).

New believers are baptized into the membership of the local body of baptized believers. And Mark 16:15-16 does not mention the "universal, invisible, mystical, Body of Christ Church" you are talking about. It says that he who believes and is baptized is saved, and he who does not believe is lost. Note the contrast, believe = saved, believe not = lost. And the corollary, he who believes will also, out of obedience, be baptized. Allow me to illustrate with a paraphrase, "He who boards the bus, and sits down, will ride into town. He who boards not the bus shall be left behind." What got you to town, the boarding of the bus or the sitting down?

As for chapter and verse – I have already provided a number of Chapters and Verses.

Not one of which teach your "universal (catholic), invisible, mystical, Body of Christ Church."

Doc, I have never heard another Baptist (Fundamental or Liberal) claim that the “local congregations” are the body of Christ – until you and Mark.

Perhaps, you have never talked to an historic Baptist before.

 

[Ransom]

Mark Osgatharp said:

In I Corinthians 10:17 Paul identifies the "partakers" of the Lord's supper as those who are "one body." Since the body of Christ is a local congregation of baptized believers, then that is the capacity in which the supper should be celebrated.

Mark:

To whose body do the members of the Baptist church in the next town belong?

Restricting the supper to the membership of the local church, assuming the church practices discipline, is the only way to safely avoid eating with the impenitent.

Guilty until proven innocent, eh? How charitable.

 

[latterrain77]

Hi Doc! Thank you for your kind reply.

Was the “thief on the cross” a member of the body of Christ? If yes, then which local congregation did he belong to? If no, then why wasn’t he a member of the “body of Christ?”

What about the Publican of Luke 18:13-14? When he went down to his house "justified," was he aleady a member of the body of Christ at that moment? Or, did he have to go to a local congregation first before becoming a member of the Body of Christ? (for your convenience, Luke 18: 13-14 is provided below for your review).

In your previous post (prior to your last) you said, “The church at Corinth is a body of baptized believers belonging to Christ, they are united, one, in Christ.”

The Church at Corinth “united as one” Doc? Hardly! That’s not what I read in the Bible. I read quite the opposite (1 Cor. 1: 11-14 and nearly the entire book!). Why would anyone want to be “united” with the guy in 1 Cor. 5: 1? (for example).

You said, “New believers are baptized into the membership of the local body of baptized believers.”

No, they are baptized individually into the BODY OF CHRIST the moment they become saved. “Ye must be born again” is a call to an “individual” not a “corporation.”

What about “death bed confessions” Doc? What about babies who (GOD FORBID) die in the womb? What about the “thief on the cross?” (asked above). What about the man or woman, lost and alone in a jungle, with no hope of survival, who cries out to GOD for mercy? Which “local congregation” can any of these be baptized into Doc? Are they NOT in the body of Christ because they missed the "local congregation corporation" experience? Are they doomed?

You said, “Allow me to illustrate with a paraphrase, "He who boards the bus, and sits down, will ride into town. He who boards not the bus shall be left behind." What got you to town, the boarding of the bus or the sitting down?”

CORPORATIONS cannot board a bus Doc. Only individuals CAN! We agree!

You said, “Perhaps, you have never talked to an historic Baptist before.”

I continue to hold out hope.

latterrain77

Luke 18: 13-14 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

[ September 10, 2002, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

[Sherrie]

To borrow SaggyWomans' phrase,

"OH Please!
I do not think you were wrong!"

"As oft as you do it, do it in remembrance of me"

Sherrie

 

[latterrain77]

Hi DocCass! Have you had the chance to think this over yet?

Was the “thief on the cross” a member of the body of Christ? If yes, then which local congregation did he belong to? If no, then why wasn’t he a member of the “body of Christ?”

What about the Publican of Luke 18:13-14? When he went down to his house "justified," was he aleady a member of the body of Christ at that moment? Or, did he have to go to a local congregation first before becoming a member of the Body of Christ? (for your convenience, Luke 18: 13-14 is provided below for your review).

Thanks Doc!

latterrain77

"And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." (Luke 18: 13-14)

 

[DocCas]

No, the theif on the cross was not a member of the church at Jerusalem. That seems to me to be self-evident.

As to the publican, as we don't know what he did next, we don't know if he joined the church at Jerusalem or not. If he did, he may well have been one of the 120 in the upper room on the day of pentecost.

All such speculation is irrelevant. If God had wanted us to know, He would have told us.

 

[latterrain77]

Hi Doc. I much appreciate your reply and thank you for taking the time to think it out.

It sounds like you are saying that the thief on the cross did NOT belong to a local congregation? Yet, we know he was saved. So, he must have been a member of the Body of Christ individually. Am I wrong?

As to the Publican, the LORD said that the man went home already justified. I take this to mean that at that moment he was ALREADY individually a member of the Body of Christ. Do you agree?

I appreciate your follow up Doc. I always enjoy your terrific comments on the BaptistBoard. We agree on many topics.

latterrain77

 

[rlvaughn]

latterrain, I am curious, for the purpose of understanding your question, if you think the body of Christ existed before the day of Pentecost? The reason I am asking this is that in the Fundamental Forum it seems that many there have argued that a spiritual baptism on Pentecost was absolutely necessary for the birth of the church and the existence of a "body of Christ". If I am understanding your question, a "body of Christ" composed of all the saved would have had to have existed before Pentecost. Please explain your view. Thanks so much.

 

[latterrain77]

Hi Doc! Sorry, I forgot to get your answer on the other part of my previous inquiry.

What about “death bed confessions?" What about babies who (GOD FORBID) die in the womb? What about the man or woman, lost and alone in a jungle, with no hope of survival, who cries out to GOD for mercy? Which “local congregation” can any of these be baptized into? Are they NOT in the body of Christ because they missed the "local congregation corporation" experience? Are they doomed?

Thank you Doc. I appreciate your reply.

latterrain77

 

[latterrain77]

Hi rlvaughn. Thank you for your question and comments. Yes, I do believe the body of Christ existed before Pentecost. Thank you again for the question rlvaughn. It is appreciated.

latterrain77

 

[latterrain77]

Hi Doc. You still have not responded. Have you had the chance to think this over yet?

What about “death bed confessions?" What about babies who (GOD FORBID) die in the womb? What about the man or woman, lost and alone in a jungle, with no hope of survival, who cries out to GOD for mercy? Which “local congregation” can any of these be baptized into? Are they NOT in the body of Christ because they missed the "local congregation corporation" experience? Are they doomed?

Thanking you in advance for you comments Doc.

latterrain77

 

[DocCas]

Originally posted by latterrain77:
Hi Doc. I much appreciate your reply and thank you for taking the time to think it out.

I didn't have to "think it out." It was a no-brainer.

It sounds like you are saying that the thief on the cross did NOT belong to a local congregation? Yet, we know he was saved. So, he must have been a member of the Body of Christ individually. Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong, as usual. He obviously was never baptized and never joined the local body of believers in Jerusalem.

As to the Publican, the LORD said that the man went home already justified. I take this to mean that at that moment he was ALREADY individually a member of the Body of Christ.

Can you post a verse which proves he joined the local body of baptized believers at Jerusalem? Chapter and verse please.

Do you agree?

I never agree with theological error.

 

[DocCas]

Originally posted by latterrain77:
What about “death bed confessions?" What about babies who (GOD FORBID) die in the womb? What about the man or woman, lost and alone in a jungle, with no hope of survival, who cries out to GOD for mercy? Which “local congregation” can any of these be baptized into?

I would think the answer would be self-evident. None! Obviously!

Are they NOT in the body of Christ because they missed the "local congregation corporation" experience? Are they doomed?

I don't know where you got the idea that church membership was required for salvation, but you could not be more hetrodox in that belief. Now that is pure Romanism!