Mel Miller: //And if the Pre-Tribbers assert there will be
no pre-signs required because Christ is coming
"as a thief," they need to realize that He said
His coming as a thief will occur when the armies
are gathered to Armageddon ... at the END of the Endtime.
Rev.16:15.//
Interesting, two different appearances, one as a Thief
IN THE NIGHT, one publically against the Mountian of Miggedo
(AKA: Harmageddon) -- the only way to get them the same
is to assume them the same and indulge in CIRCULAR LOGIC
Where I come from, 'the thief in the night' comes and
you don't notice until your stuff is long gone.
BTW, why do you think the place of the gathering of the
armies of evil is called 'the Mountian of Miggedo'
(AKA: Harmageddon where 'Har' is a prefix meaning
'mountain')? I mean Miggedo is the largest Valley
in today's physical/geographic Israel.
Maybe the mountian is a spiritual symbol for a physical gathering
in the valley?
Bill Brown's lead-in post:
Comparative analysis: Matthew 24, 25 & 1 Thessalonians 4
Eschatologically speaking, are these chapters dealing with
the same event (the 2nd coming)or separate events (the second coming
and the rapture)? I am interested in the reasearch you
used to come with you opinion.
I will certainly share mine as well.//
WIll be interesting to hear from you.
Thought, of course, pepole are lots more interested in
telling their opinion instead of how they came to that opinion.
I'm a pretribulation rapturist believeing that God will
rapture/resurrect the Church Age (AKA: Age of Gentiles) prior
to the 7-year Tribulation Period (AKA: rule of the Antichrist).
Unfortunately, I'm also a qualified (in the State of OKlahoma)
secular teacher of Logic. So I know that for any logic,
one must start with what 200 years ago was
called an 'axiom' /self evident truth/ but today is
called an 'assumption" /something one thinks might be
true.
From the nature of God I think it is a good assumption to
make that Jesus will come to get me (in the rapture or the
resurrection) and take me to heaven
prior to God's bringing Judgement to the earth.
I have found nothing in the Bible since I made this assumption
that contradicts my assumption.
By contrast, most other eschatological viewpoints are
assumed as well without the knowledge of the believer.
And their proofs constitute circular logic.
If you start assuming 2+2=5 you can PROVE 2+2=5.
BTW, I first found this Axiom in April 1952. I was saved
at a pretribulation's revial meeting in Elk City Oklahoma
in April 1952. So I've had lots of time (other than working
and raising a family /on the 2ed Job and 2ed Family) to
study the logic of my statement in light of The Teachings
of the Holy Bible. So I hope Jesus comes to get me in
the rapture before the Tribulation Period. Some scoffers say
that that is prideful. Sorry, I still HOPE hope Jesus comes to get me in
the rapture before the Tribulation Period.
I've sit by others MONTHS dying of cancer and the process of
DYING is worse than you think it is
I understand it may be my lot to die, but i'll be resurrected
in the pretribulation rapture/resurrection. I understand it
may be my lot to be tortured for Christ's sake without
entering the Ttribulation Period. And i know that even if I
am weak and renounce Jesus, JESUS WILL NEVER RENOUNCE me. Not
cause I have anything to brag about, but because JESUS HAS
EVERYTHING TO BRAG ABOUT!!!! Jesus is my Lord and that
cannot change no matter how stupid I might be. FOr what Jesus
has done for me, saving me from eternal damnation in
the Lake of Fire, I shall serve my Lord and Savior: Messiah
Jesus. And even if i fail - Jesus will NEVER FAIL. I'm was
as saved the day i received regneration (initial salvation)
as I will be at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
I'm as saved today as I will be at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
with daily, now type salvation: continual working with Christ
in daily clean-ups: sanctification.
On that day when we Christianst Glory in the Lord and THe
Lord gives us His Glory (AKA: the pretribulation rapture/resurrection)
we are also saved. When does the salvation of Jesus end?
It is eternal, it is forever, it has no end.
See, all my doctrines JIVE together, is is one doctrine,
the LORd's doctrine.
BTW, I was doing some study of the early Chruch Fathers.
One of the main doctrinal topic about 220 to 320AD was
the Salvation of the Lapsi: could a person who renounced
God ever be saved again? The answer is, NO. But such a
person is NOT lost. There were several evil people in
this time period who, when a person rescended his faith
in Christ, got tortured to death anyway - the crime:
'hanging with Christers' - the penalty 'hanging on crosses
with Christains". So some Lapsi became instant martyrs.
Bill Brown: //I am a historic premillenialist (in the same mold
as the late James Boice). I do not hold to a premillenial rapture. //
Be careful, some 'post-tribulation rapturists' you will find
here are NOT premillenialists. Recall that a-mills can
believe in a physical/literal Second Coming at the end of the world
even though they don't believe in a physical Millinnial
Messianic Reign of Christ on the physical throne of David in a
physical Jerusalem.
Grasshopper: //If Paul was writing to living Christians, and he was,
And if those Christians were being persecuted for their faith,
and they were, And if Paul promised those living
Christians relief from that persecution, and he did,
and if Paul promised those living Christians that thei
relief would come "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven",
and he did, Then if Jesus did not come in the lifetime
of those living Christians and give them relief from
that present persecution, then, Paul was a false prophet!//\
This logic is invalid. In fact, this is a good example of
'reducto ad absurdum' - reduction to the absurd.
In this logic technque, you make an assumption, then do some
logic showing an absurd conclusion. THis proves the assumption
false. Here the absurd conclusion is that Bible writer "Paul
was a false prophet!" Obviously, this is absurd, for all the
Bible writers were inspired of God and their writings are
without error.
LEt us look at the three assumptions:
1. //If Paul was writing to living Christians, and he was, ...//
This is shown false by the 'Reducto Ad Absurdum' argument.
Paul was writing to the living Christians, and to us
who were not living that that time.
2. // ... if those Christians were being persecuted
for their faith, and they were, ... //
This assumption is likely correct and is a good assumption
3. //... if Paul promised those living
Christians relief from that persecution, and he did, ... //
This assumption is correct, but with
a WRONG implication.
Paul did not promise 'living Christians relief from
that persecution' while they lived.
Even death, for a Christian is 'relief from
persecution' for the soul goes to heaven where
there is no evil nor persecution.
As I probably said earlier, if i die in Christ, I am
sure I'll be resurrected one of the two times that
Jesus comes the Second time.
--------------------------------------
o$h's 13 'facts' compared with the scriptures.
First of all, I believe that Matthew 24:29's 'after the
tribulation of those days' does NOT pertain to
Matthew 24:31. Matthew 24:29-30 is about
the Second Coming Event; Matthew 24:31-44 is about
the signless Pretribulation Rapture/resurrection Event.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 to 5:11 is about the
1. Christ Himself Returns Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16
This denotes a similarity between the two Second
Comings of Christ.
2. From Heaven Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16
This denotes a similarity between the two Second
Comings of Christ: one coming to get HIs own, a second
phase of the second coming to destroy the antichrist
and his evil works.
3. With a Shout Matt. 24:30 (in power) I Thess. 4:16
This denotes a similarity between the two Second
Comings of Christ.
4. Accompanied by Angels Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16
Both these scriptures speak only of
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
5. With Trumpet of God Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16
Both these scriptures speak only of the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
6. Believers Gathered Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:17
Both these scriptures speak only of the Gathering
AKA: the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
7. In Clouds Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:17
The post-tribulatin Second Coming Event is WITH THE CLOUDS
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection event is in the clouds
8. Time Unknown Matt. 24:36 I Thess. 5:1-2
The post-tribulatin Second Coming Event has a known time:
7-years after the pretribulation rapture/resurrection event,
and 3-1/2 years after the Antichrist declares himself GOd
in the 3rd temple.
9. Will Come as a Thief Matt. 24:43 I Thess. 5:2,4
Both these passages are about the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection Event. When the Lord COmes with
10s of Millions of Heaven's horsemen - it will show up
on the world's radars prior to their arrival.
10. Unbelievers Unaware of Impending Judgment Matt. 24:37-39 I Thess. 5:3
Unbelievers are always unaware of impending Judgment,
no matter what the dispensation one is in.
11. Judgment Comes as Travail upon Expectant Mother Matt. 24:8 I Thess. 5:3
This is true always. BTW, Matthew 24:8 is about a sign that
the Chruch Age (Age of the Gentiles) contine NOT that Jesus
is coming soon.
12. Believers to Watch Matt. 24:42 I Thess. 5:4
Both these scriputres are about the pretribulatin
rapture/resurrection of the Church Age saints
13. Warning Against Drunkenness Matt. 24:49 I Thess. 5:7
These scriptures are true throughout all ages:
those who wait upon the Lord shall rise up as Eagles
-------------------------------------
] //