Comparing America to Ancient Civilizations

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Brother James:
"Rich people and in particular capitalists provide the funding for job creation..."


The Bible tells us in James ch. 5 how good rich people are to the poor and how rich in faith they are.

Context, context, context,....

Jesus uses several "just" rich men as analogies for the Father. The "talent" man... the vineyard owner... the man who hired workers for a penny (which btw many would probably call "unfair" though Jesus said he was within his RIGHTS to pay as he saw fit)... You can hardly say that all rich are wicked or make generalizations about "how good rich people are to the poor".

America is the world's richest country... and its most generous in private charity.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with employing people and making a profit through their efforts. Jesus doesn't condemn it... He doesn't even condemn paying unequally for the same work but instead defers to the lords property rights.

Further, Joseph of Arimathea was more than likely rich. Many in the Jerusalem church were rich and sold much of their goods to share "all things in common". Lydia was a trader of fine cloth... not a pauper. The Book of Philemon was written to a rich slave owner without a hint that he had unjustly treated Philemon but with much appeal by Paul for him to forgive his "unprofitable" runaway slave.

Solomon and David were certainly rich... as were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

How about Job? Possibly the richest man of his day... and praised of God. Moses certainly held both power and wealth during his day. Joshua and Caleb were both granted great wealth and responsibility for their faithfulness.

 

[Rocko9]

It is a sin if the elitist rich such as Haliburton make it the easy way through cronyism. Appointing good buddies into the government that are not qualified to perform (heckuva job Brownie}, lets face it our government is not being a good steward with our tax dollars and that is a fact!

 

[Brother James]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
Brother James, is it a sin to be rich ?

No it's not Brother Curtis. It is a sin to steal from and oppress the poor which is the general rule of the rich according to James 5. Also Paul tells us that not many noble are called in 1Cor.
How many born again Bible thumping rich people do you know? I don't see a revival of biblical ethics on Wall st. I haven't seen many revivals break out amongst the rich elite in this country.
Is your church full of rich folks lined up to give away a great portion of thier wealth and follow Jesus? Most are like the rich young ruler.
Thank God for the few rich who are following God but they are the exception and not the rule.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Agreed. (The second part)But that doesn't mean "tax the rich, feed the poor, until there are no rich no more".....

BTW, every paycheck I've ever recieved was signed by a rich man.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Rocko9:
It is a sin if the elitist rich such as Haliburton make it the easy way through cronyism. Appointing good buddies into the government that are not qualified to perform (heckuva job Brownie}, lets face it our government is not being a good steward with our tax dollars and that is a fact!

Halliburton pales in comparison to other sweetheart deals to include rules that require union workers for gov't contracted work.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

My church is full of cowboys who work hard for a living. I work hard for my money.

Second, I fail to see how a person in the tax bracket targeted by Bush's tax cuts is stealing anything from anyone.

Taking my money and giving it to welfare bums IS stealing.

 

[Brother James]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
Agreed. But that doesn't mean "tax the rich, feed the poor, until there are no rich no more".....

BTW, every paycheck I've ever recieved was signed by a rich man.

We are agreed here Brother. Stealing is sin no matter who does it. Rich people sign my check as well but they do not love Jesus and I've yet to meet any rich man personally who was willing to lay it down for the sake of the kingdom of God if called to do so. The general rule for the rich is how can I make more money. They, for the most part could care less about anything Biblical much less mercy and justice.

 

[Scott J]

This unfair "tax cuts for the rich" pandering is deceptive propaganda... since the "rich" pay most of the income taxes. If memory serves me correctly something over 50% is paid by the top 5% of filers.

You are right Bro Curtis... This deception relies on the sins of envy, coveteousness, and jealousy. People have lost respect for property rights... Many seem to think if someone has "too much" gov't has a duty to take it away from them since it isn't possible that they "earned it or have a right to it".

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Sounds like you are lumping all rich people into the same category. I refuse to believe there are no well-of folks who give very generously.

If a rich person gave to support the Lord's work, and did it biblically, you would never know about it.

 

[Rocko9]

It's that other stuff we find out about. And no I did not lump all rich folk togethor. Well to do Christians will be modest and never bring attention to themselves, for there works are as filthy rags to the Lord.

 

[Brother James]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
Sounds like you are lumping all rich people into the same category. I refuse to believe there are no well-of folks who give very generously.

If a rich person gave to support the Lord's work, and did it biblically, you would never know about it.

You're right brother I wouldn't know about it. All I know is what the scripture says about them in general. Harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle I believe is how Jesus put it. Again, I thank God for any wealthy person who is in the work of the Lord but I am sure they are in the very slim minority among the rich.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I was addressing Brother James, in my post. I should have made that clear.

 

[Scott J]

BTW, all taxes are eventually paid by the producers and consumers.

The most effective way to tax is to directly tax activity rather than wealth. Taxing wealth introduces the inefficiency of being indirect... and a huge bureaucracy. The IRS itself costs about $10 billion per year... add to that all of the accountants and tax lawyers and the resulting tax within the tax constitutes perhaps even 100's of billions in unnecessary inefficiency...

A single sales tax of about 15% or so would generate about $1.9 trillion... about the same as projected revenues through the current mess without all of the compliance costs. The remainder should be made up with import tariffs and user fees for government services/resources.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by Scott J:
Cutting taxes does not necessarily increase revenue and conversely increasing tax rates will generally not have a long term positive effect on revenues.

JFK was the first to recognize that a "rising tide lifts all boats". That was his way of saying "trickle down".

The Bush tax cuts have not harmed but rather increased revenue by increasing taxable business activity. High tax rates and regulations have a stiffling effect on economic activity.

IT IS A LIBERAL LIE THAT REDUCING TAXES HAS HURT THE POOR OR INCREASED THE DEFICIT.

Rich people and in particular capitalists provide the funding for job creation... and they are much better at producing worthwhile jobs than government ever can be.

This is one reason why a tax on the exchange of goods and services should give the government a real incentive to do things that promote such exchange.

Taxing income, profits, property, inventory, businesses, etc. all serve to work against growth. Taxing the final exchange puts the cost into that of the sale which becomes a burden for the purchaser who in the end is the individual. That individual must "feel" the effect of the taxes in order to care about how the money is spent.

Aside from cutting spending - good - or increasing taxes - bad - the third way to reduce the deficit is to grow the total economy by promoting individual and business investments in such a way that the defect becomes relatively smaller.

We need to work at reducing the amount of effort that goes into goods and services that really add no value but are merely a leach on society. We all know what some of these are. Government could have a positive effect in this area.

In the end, however, it is not the government that can accomplish the needed change but the ideas, risks, and work of people who want to make money by offering some goods or services of value to others.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by Scott J:
BTW, all taxes are eventually paid by the producers and consumers.

The most effective way to tax is to directly tax activity rather than wealth. Taxing wealth introduces the inefficiency of being indirect... and a huge bureaucracy. The IRS itself costs about $10 billion per year... add to that all of the accountants and tax lawyers and the resulting tax within the tax constitutes perhaps even 100's of billions in unnecessary inefficiency...

A single sales tax of about 15% or so would generate about $1.9 trillion... about the same as projected revenues through the current mess without all of the compliance costs. The remainder should be made up with import tariffs and user fees for government services/resources.

You're right on target Scott J!

 

[billwald]

It has been several hundred years since anything hindered the transfer of assets from the working class to our owners except maybe the Russian revolution.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by billwald:
It has been several hundred years since anything hindered the transfer of assets from the working class to our owners except maybe the Russian revolution.

It seems to me that the "working class" has a lot more wealth than ever before in history. They own the skills. The owners own the jobs.

 

[UnchartedSpirit]

but bablyon was OT, and Hussein wanted restore this empire. And this thread looks like the alternating judges in the book of kings! whats wrong with that comparason? It goes better for us especially if we get another conservitave election, he might be like Jedicaiah! Hopefully his son won't follow...

 

[Rocko9]

Originally posted by Dragoon68:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by billwald:
It has been several hundred years since anything hindered the transfer of assets from the working class to our owners except maybe the Russian revolution.

It seems to me that the "working class" has a lot more wealth than ever before in history. They own the skills. The owners own the jobs. </font>[/QUOTE]----------------------------
Dragoon , will have to disagree on that point. Most of the working class wages have not kept up with inflation and thats a fact. Although I am sure that a few dwindling good paying jobs do exist among the working class but they are dissapppearing quickly.

 

[UnchartedSpirit]

OK, Thats mainly due now to those South American illegal aliens stealing our jobs because they're more attractive,and can be abused easier.