Comparing online seminaries

[Humblesmith]

For what it's worth....
I'm in the online/distance program at Southern Evangelical, and for me, it's either get the education online or not at all. The specific program at SES is not taught anywhere close to me, and I'm not in a position to ask the rest of my family to give up their lives and move.

Further, I have done about 60 graduate hours at state schools, culminating in an M.Ed. Almost all of that was significantly easier than what I'm doing now at seminary.

What I'm missing by not attending the brick and mortar building is the comraderie and making the contacts.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
A friend of mine is a headhunter. He can more easily place a high end exec with a degree from Phoenix than he can someone with a degree from most state institutions in the TN/GA/SC/NC/AL area.

BTW, I know little, if anything, of any of the online seminaries, but I do know of many scholars who are lamenting the decline of many brick and mortar seminaries. Their description matches my friend's description of public colleges: They lower standards so more people can attend and graduate. At the same time they are lowering standards in key classes, they are adding a bunch of junk to pad out the credit hours. (Here locally, you can get college credit for fly fishing.)

BTW, this is just intended as a minor observation. Neither an endorsement or condemnation of anything.

Obviously, I cannot refute a personal anecdote since I don't know anything about it firsthand. However, I do know that obvious DE degrees are not quite as heavily accepted in academic fields as residential programs. Most degrees do not indicate they were earned by DE. For example, the national Ed.D. in educational leadership from Nova Southeastern may earn the right to be prefixed by the title doctor but it may not earn a competitive teaching position in an university school of education.

Furthermore, I would argue with the implication regarding the state universities in the TN/GA/SC/NC/AL area. Clemson is headed toward becoming a top-twenty research university. Auburn, Georgia Tech, NC State, and Clemson have top-flight engineering schools. UT is one of two research centers for basic science (i.e. the fundamental nature of things). The MBA in international business at the University of SC is the best in the nation. The University of South Alabama at Mobile has the reputation of being a premier teacher-training institution. UNC-Chapel Hill is comparable to any state university that you can name. Also, there are up and coming smaller universities, such as UNC-Charlotte which is gaining a reputation as a research university, that are gaining recognition and national stature.

Since I assume that your headhunter friend deals more with MBA types, I will stipulate that MBA programs, except for USC, do not necessarily have national status in the South. However, Peter Drucker, the foremost American business guru, thinks a MBA is pretty much a crock as for preparing people to excel in business. Me too.

The problem is that I can’t find a state university in the South that will give credit for deer hunting, turkey hunting, or bass fishing. Ya’ll got any up noth that’ll give credit? Huh?

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
A friend of mine is a headhunter. He can more easily place a high end exec with a degree from Phoenix than he can someone with a degree from most state institutions in the TN/GA/SC/NC/AL area.

Why? I am in a doctoral program at a state university and plan to graduate in the Spring semester of 2007. So far I have had two interviews with two universities. I have not sent out any resumes or filled out any applications. They have contacted me first.

 

[Hope of Glory]

"Most" and "some" are very important words. (Even at the institutions you named, it's easy to get a sub-par education, even with the excellent education offered.) However, so many of the colleges have become "seeker friendly" and give out diplomas to those who don't deserve them.

By the same token, this does not infer that all DE educations are quality either. He simply stated that a degree from Phoenix is far more valuable than a degree from UTC or many other state institutions.

Here where I live, you can get credit hours for fly fishing and kayaking, as well as astrology, and some other New Age junk.

And no, he doesn't deal strictly with MBA's, but they are important. I remember when I was in DC, I dealt with people with all sorts of degrees who could not even do simple math and write simple reports. They had degrees all over the place that colleges gave them.

As a side note, I think this appalling lack of education is a tool that Satan uses to keep people ignorant of the deeper things of God. If they don't understand English, how can you expect them to understand Greek?

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
And no, he doesn't deal strictly with MBA's, but they are important. I remember when I was in DC, I dealt with people with all sorts of degrees who could not even do simple math and write simple reports. They had degrees all over the place that colleges gave them.

As a side note, I think this appalling lack of education is a tool that Satan uses to keep people ignorant of the deeper things of God. If they don't understand English, how can you expect them to understand Greek?

Some folks around the country are now getting caught with phony degrees. It seeems like the number of religious mills have increased as well.

Tell your friend to come to the University of Northern Iowa. A higher percentage of the students in the business school from UNI than from any other college and university in the US who take the CPA test for the first time have passed the test.

I agree with you about English. Some people are proud of ignorance. They feel that education keeps you from being faithful. Education just increases the responsibility because you do know. With increased knowledge comes increased pain.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Some folks around the country are now getting caught with phony degrees.

Sadly, many of these degrees are legitimate. Many colleges continue in the idea that you can't damage the self-esteem of someone by failing them.

Sometimes, you can take two people with the same degrees from the same school, and one of them took full advantage of the education that was offered and is brilliant. The other one simply has a piece of paper that he was given.

My friend has no shortage of clients, and I'm sure he's aware of the colleges that put out sound students. He's quite successful at what he does.

BTW, I also have heard many people lament that with a good education you can't hear the Holy Spirit. I contend that without an education, you don't know the difference between a present, active, participle and a Chevy van. I think many lament that, as you say, because they don't want to know. If what the Holy Spirit "tells them personally" something that contradicts Scripture, then they can be quite happy in ignorance and never have to change a thought.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I want to be sure that no one thinks that I am disparaging education or even that most colleges are this way.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
I want to be sure that no one thinks that I am disparaging education or even that most colleges are this way.

Don't worry! As an educator, I am skeptical of education.

 

[paidagogos]

It seems as if online seminaries are popping up daily all over the place. The quality of these online and distance education programs varies greatly. Whereas I believe strongly in the legitimacy of distance education, I find that many DE programs derive their chief appeal from a quick and easy way to get a degree.

Most online degree programs shy away from posting too many specifics about the requirements for their degrees. There may be a reason for this. Here is one that gives the details for a Ph.D. in Christian Counseling. I would like to hear the opinions of the posters who are interested in DE. I would especially value the opinion of individuals holding accredited doctorates or doctoral candidates. How do the requirements for the Ph.D. from the following web site compare to your own doctoral program?

http://newburghseminary.com/doctor_of_philosophy_in_christian_counseling

Their web site claims:
"Without doubt, many of our students/graduates are among the highest caliber, most intelligent, talented, best-educated and most effective individuals you will find anywhere. They, and their NTS degrees, are equal to their counterparts from traditional schools anywhere in the world (emphasis added)."

Pardon me but I don't think so!

My personal opinion is that the academic skills and rigor would not qualify for a good undergraduate degree. Many of these books are simply popular books written for a general public. Furthermore, there is a noticeable lack of controls and established criteria. Being slightly knowledgeable of this area, I would consider the choice of texts as pathetic. There appears to be no breadth or organized rationale for covering the field. Furthermore, there is no intense study of any specialization within the field. IMHO, these books do not represent a serious approach of where Christian counseling is today. It’s a cheap and easy way to be called, “Doctor.”

What do you think?

P.S. I’ll take the challenge of completing this program, without sweat, in six months (I type 40-60 wpm

) if someone will pay the tuition. Then, I’ll change my Baptist Board username to Dr. Paidagogos (Newburgh Seminary).

(Just kidding......no time to waste on tomfoolry.......don't want anyone taking me up on this...... )

 

[Broadus]

Compare Newburgh to SBTS? Would "laughable" work? The cynical part of me wonders how much money is to be made in establishing such institutions of "higher" education.

Bill

 

[paidagogos]

Many posters on this board have slaved many hours learning Greek and Hebrew for their undergraduate, graduate or seminary degrees. Bethany, a school offering doctorates at a distance, makes the following claim on their web site:
"The main purpose for the seminary student learning a foreign language is to make possible an intelligent reading of the classical writings such as German, Hebrew, and Greek. These works have been translated into English and through modern technology and advanced Bible study tools, students are able to enjoy the benefit of classical Hebrew and Greek without having an in-depth knowledge of these languages (emphasis added)." To insure that Bethany students have the tools necessary to appropriate this technology, Bethany requires that graduate students be literate in Research Methodology and Computer skills."

Well folks, it seems as if we're wasting our time learning Greek and Hebrew. Do you believe it? Have you noticed that the questionable schools are generally very light on Biblical languages? Could this be a bench mark for gauging schools? What do you think?

 

[Broadus]

When you don't possess the capability to teach biblical languages, you have to tip your hat to their importance even while you cut corners for your students to "obtain" them. Many students buy into such reasoning as Bethany gives because now they are "trained" in how to use biblical languages without all the effort of really getting into them.

It's not just questionable schools which skimp on languages, though. Some accredited seminaries have made languages optional, even designating a special "Master of Divinity with Biblical Languages" for those who go the more difficult route.

Bill

 

[Rhetorician]

Hey to all:

I received the old 96 semester hour Diploma of Theology (now the ADiv) from MABTS in the early/mid 80s without the Biblical Languages. We, in essence, did the same work as MABTS' MDiv students at that time.

Later, after I got my BSc, I went back and did the MDiv @ The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. So, I think I can speak to both sides of the MDiv "with" and "without languages" coin.

To me, an MDiv "Without Languages" is not any better than my 96 hr. Diploma of Theology (Associate Degree) earned from Mid America years ago. On some levels, I feel as if I earned TWO M. Divs.

IMHO; an MDiv without the BLs is an oxymoron, and should never be allowed to be issued by an ATS accredited seminary!!! The MDiv presupposes, IMHO, the Biblical Languages at the very minimum.

The MDiv grad w/o the BLs is always and forever having to trust others for the hues and tints of meaning in the Biblical Texts done by others or different translators. Sometimes, the meaning is missed altogether!!!!!!

IMHO!

sdg!

rd

[ January 21, 2006, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Rhetorician ]

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Rhetorician:
Hey to all:

I received the old 96 semester hour Diploma of Theology (now the ADiv) from MABTS in the early/mid 80s without the Biblical Languages. We, in essence, did the same work as MABTS' MDiv students at that time.

Later, after I got my BSc, I went back and did the MDiv @ The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. So, I think I can speak to both sides of the MDiv "with" and "without languages" coin.

To me, an MDiv "Without Languages" is not any better than my 96 hr. Diploma of Theology (Associate Degree) earned from Mid America years ago. On some levels, I feel as if I earned TWO M. Divs.

IMHO; an MDiv without the BLs is an oxymoron, and should never be allowed to be issued by an ATS accredited seminary!!! The MDiv presupposes, IMHO, the Biblical Languages at the very minimum.

The MDiv grad w/o the BLs is always and forever having to trust others for the hues and tints of meaning in the Biblical Texts done by others or different translators. Sometimes, the meaning is missed altogether!!!!!!

IMHO!

sdg!

rd

The M.Div. being a first professional degree is different from say the M.A. in Bible where the individual has an undergrad degree in Bible. Generally, the M.A. does not require Biblical languages. Is this based on the presumption that the undergrad work included Greek? I do think the M.Div. ought to have the language requirement.

 

[EdSutton]

Some Seminary, don't remember where, a few years ago offered two 'three year' programs- one leading to a degree of M.Div. with Biblical Languages as part of it' whereas a virtually identical cucciculum (curricula?) without the Biblical Languges led to a B.D.. Luther Rice Seminary, in its early years, had and offered a somewhat unusual B.D. for those years- the early years of the M.Div. nomenclature frrm the previously designated three year B.D.. This I know for a close friend had that degree, which he had incidentally received while studying at the Seminary, not by 'distance' learning, before he went on to Dallas for his Th.M.. I know nothing about today, with either LR or any others specifically. There are more degrees available (and by this I mean legit, not some 'sub-standard' one) already out there than Carter has liver pills. I guess 'caveat emptor' is an apt description.
Ed

 

[Jimmy C]

The following is a link to Rockbridge Seminary, they are not accredited yet - just started in 2004, but regional accredidation is very important to them. The president of the seminary is Dr. Darryl Eldridge who was formerly the Dean of the Educational Ministries School at SWBTS.

What will drive many of the folks crazy on this board is the close link with Saddleback Church and Rick Warren!


http://www.rockbridgeseminary.org/default.aspx

 

[Rhetorician]

For what it is worth:

One of the co-founders of Rockbridge Seminary is Dr. Sam Simmons. I was a student @ MABTS just after Dr. Simmons graduated with his doctorate and went on staff there. We both pastored the same little country church at different times.

He is a good and Godly man. He has a heart for the local church. He has a heart for missions and evangelism. I know he is a personal soul-winner. If this type of educational delivery system and price are within your means, I am sure you will get a quality education.

I would be glad to answer any questions that I can off line if needs be.

sdg!

rd

 

[Phil310]

Has anyone heard of the School of Biblical and Theological Studies?

www.bibleschool.edu

 

[El_Guero]

It does look pretty bad.

 

[El_Guero]

Rhet

What do you have to say about Dr. Sam Simmons?