Comparing online seminaries

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
The M.Div. being a first professional degree is different from say the M.A. in Bible where the individual has an undergrad degree in Bible. Generally, the M.A. does not require Biblical languages.

I know from personal experience I had 21 credits of undergraduate Greek (Grammar, Syntax, Exegesis, Advanced Grammar) for my BA degree.

Then in the MABS another 8 credits of Greek and 8 credits of Hebrew.

My class in the MA program was the LAST required to write a thesis. Subsequent ones could take added language in its place.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Phil310:
Has anyone heard of the School of Biblical and Theological Studies?

www.bibleschool.edu

The problem is that the faculty has its degrees from less than wonderful schools. Some of the schools are pretty much degree mills.

 

[Rhetorician]

El Guero,

See what I said about Dr. Simmons in the post above.

sdg!

rd

 

[Rhetorician]

El Guero,

You asked above and I quote:

"Rhet

What do you have to say about Dr. Sam Simmons?"

This is what I said about Dr. Simmons above! How much more would you want me to say about him? He is a true "Man of God" as far as I know about him!

And I said, quoting from the post above:

"He is a good and Godly man. He has a heart for the local church. He has a heart for missions and evangelism. I know he is a personal soul-winner. If this type of educational delivery system and price are within your means, I am sure you will get a quality education."

I do not know what else I can say than that testimonial?

sdg!

rd

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Jimmy C:
The following is a link to Rockbridge Seminary, they are not accredited yet - just started in 2004, but regional accredidation is very important to them. The president of the seminary is Dr. Darryl Eldridge who was formerly the Dean of the Educational Ministries School at SWBTS.

What will drive many of the folks crazy on this board is the close link with Saddleback Church and Rick Warren!


http://www.rockbridgeseminary.org/default.aspx

This seems to be a credible seminary with quality people in leadership. However, I probably would disagree with its philosophy of seminary. My own concept of seminary is equipping rather than training how to do. The difference is between teaching the tools (e.g. Greek, Hebrew, hermeneutics, etc.) and teaching specific methods and applications (e.g. how to type courses). This, IMHO, is the difference between education and training. Personally, I opt for the educational model.

Also, the seminary seems to be tied into a specific philosophy—the purpose driven viewpoint. This, IMHO, is a specific ministry model based on motivational and human resource management philosophies of Rick Warren. Therefore, the students are taught one specific model of ministry rather several differing models. This is simply an analysis, not a condemnation. We're not all alike.

 

[El_Guero]

Rhet,

I apologize.

I believe you misundertood my intent. I was not trying to slight you nor to imply that you were slighting Dr. Simmons. You said that you "would be glad to answer any questions". I tho't you had more to share.

So, I asked for you to share more.

In Christ,

Wayne

 

[Rhetorician]

EG,

I would be happy to answer any one specific question by PM or email if I can.

sdg!

rd

 

[Nord]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
While surfing, I came across a web site (http://www.seminarygradschool.com/index.taf?mode=seminary) listing seminaries in the southeast. What struck me as significant were the enrollment figures.

Asbury Theological Seminary 1,700
Beeson Divinity School 180
Columbia International University Graduate School and Seminary 422
Gordon-Conwell (Charlotte, NC) 504
Knox Theological Seminary 125
Reformed Theological Seminary 2,500
Southern Evangelical Seminary 304
Wesley Biblical Seminary 135
Total 5,881

Bethany Bible College and Seminary 6,025


2. The two other less than wonderful seminaries (i.e. Louisiana Baptist University and Andersonville Theological Seminary) are equal to or greater in enrollment than Bethany. Even considering some schools not listed (e.g. Bob Jones Jr. Seminary, Pensacola Theological Seminary, North Greenville University, SBTS, SEBTS, NOBTS, etc.), it is apparent that a significant percentage of evangelical theological degrees being awarded in the Southeast come from unaccredited, distance education seminaries with questionable academic standards.

Well, I have looked at Louisiana Baptist University and have a couple of comments (I am not a graduate nor do I attend there). Based on what I recall, your assertion that LBU has enrollment as high or higher than Bethany Divinity College and Seminary is incorrect. IIRC LBU's enrollment is about 1100 (less than that of Asbury).

LBU has its problems, I think they are stengthening their program based on comments I have seen about the languages issues (I know Hebrew and Greek are required for chaplaincy candidates at LBU). They have a lot of in grown faculty and of those I counted and I think 7 had their highest degrees from schools accredited by US Dept of Ed/CHEA recognized agencies. That leaves some room for improvement.

However, LBU is an endorsed school for the Baptist Bible Fellowship (4000 plus churches). Their grads have been accepted at Liberty University and at Regents University (Law School), probably others. They also obviously have met military chaplaincy requirements. That means that because the school is not accredited they must have been able to get letters from 3 or 4 accredited seminaries (and have the seminary provide those to the military) to say that LBU's coursework was acceptable at their seminaries (as equivalent to accredited). This is mandatory for unaccredited seminaries and no easy task based on what a military chaplaincy recruiter told me.

In addition, a quick google search turned up 3 or 4 professors at regionally accredited schools with doctorates from LBU. Admittedly, I have no idea whether it was their masters that got them the job rather than the PhD from LBU.

I am not saying LBU is Dallas Theological Seminary but it may not be in the same league as Bethany, Andersonville, etc.

On a side note, I had a Southern Baptist Chaplain friend with an accredited ThD who insisted that the Assemblies of God Seminary was a diploma mill. I have another friend who refers to Southern Methodist University as community college education at Ivy League prices.

Nord

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

One small contribution to the "self-policing" part of this thread. I serve as Executive Director of the District of Columbia Baptist Convention Foundation. We have a scholarship program for seminarians coming out of our churches. We recently began to see applications coming from people attending seminaries that were not accredited by the Association of Theological Schools; some not accredited at all, others accredited by an association of like-minded schools. In response we revised our policy to say that we would give scholarships only to students attending schools accredited by (or en route to accreditation by) the Association of Theological Schools. In other words, go where you want to go, but we are only going to help pay for a certain level of quality.

 

[Nord]

Originally posted by Joseph M. Smith:
One small contribution to the "self-policing" part of this thread. I serve as Executive Director of the District of Columbia Baptist Convention Foundation. We have a scholarship program for seminarians coming out of our churches. We recently began to see applications coming from people attending seminaries that were not accredited by the Association of Theological Schools; some not accredited at all, others accredited by an association of like-minded schools. In response we revised our policy to say that we would give scholarships only to students attending schools accredited by (or en route to accreditation by) the Association of Theological Schools. In other words, go where you want to go, but we are only going to help pay for a certain level of quality.

Obviously you as an organization can do what ever you wish, but there are some flaws. The first is that you are going back in time rather than forward. Even the US military Chaplaincy now recognizes any theological degree accredited by an agency recognized by the US Dept of Education/CHEA (i.e. Regional, ATS, TRACS, etc). They also now recognize accredited distance education for chaplaincy. This did not come about because of the current war as it was in place prior to that. Those are all recognized accreditors with recognized standards and norms.

The second thing is that just as you limit, you have to also realize that there are others (schools, individuals, and organizations) that will see an ATS degree as substandard. ATS is National Accreditation, not regional. Although most ATS schools have Regional accreditation, not all do. For some entitities, ATS is simply national accreditation and if the school does not have regional accreditation it is not up to par (ie. Regional is the gold standard. Whether it is or not it does have the most utility)

ATS, TRACS, AABC, etc are National Accreditors. They are good at what they do. TRACS has come a long way and was commended some time ago by the US Dept of Ed for their methodology. They also are accrediting more and more high caliber schools without the compromise of ATS.

In any case, in my opinion, your committee ought to provide scholarships o anyone attending an accredited school that is accredited by an agency recognized by the US Department of Education/CHEA. That is in line with the federal chaplaincy, etc and reasonable.

Nord

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Nord:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by paidagogos:
[snip]

Well, I have looked at Louisiana Baptist University and have a couple of comments (I am not a graduate nor do I attend there). Based on what I recall, your assertion that LBU has enrollment as high or higher than Bethany Divinity College and Seminary is incorrect. IIRC LBU's enrollment is about 1100 (less than that of Asbury). </font>[/QUOTE]I do not doubt your integrity or information but I would like to know the source. My information may be incorrect but I expected the figure to be greater than 6,000. I do see a lot of LBU doctorates out there.

LBU has its problems, I think they are stengthening their program based on comments I have seen about the languages issues (I know Hebrew and Greek are required for chaplaincy candidates at LBU).

I will agree that they have improved and are making progress. However, I still am not willing to endorse or accept their doctorates as real academic degrees.

They have a lot of in grown faculty and of those I counted and I think 7 had their highest degrees from schools accredited by US Dept of Ed/CHEA recognized agencies. That leaves some room for improvement.

LBU has a checkered past with its roots in Christian Baptist University. Some of the key people have their degrees from the days of very loose standards. This makes it hard to shake off the bogey until you have sufficient attrition to replace these folks. I have noticed the trend of some people with degrees from less than wonderful schools to shake loose of the albatross. For example, Rick (aka Josh) Walston of Columbia Evangelical Seminary no longer lists his doctorate from Bethany.

Also, the presence of faculty with accredited doctorates does not always say what it seems to say. You can find people with respectable degrees lending their names to degree mills. Sometimes the purpose of listing these people as faculty is simply to give the impression of academic respectability. They may teach only one class, lecture at a seminar, or mentor a student. The question is what role do they play? Andersonville claims as faculty members the lecturers whose tapes they use.

However, LBU is an endorsed school for the Baptist Bible Fellowship (4000 plus churches). Their grads have been accepted at Liberty University and at Regents University (Law School), probably others. They also obviously have met military chaplaincy requirements. That means that because the school is not accredited they must have been able to get letters from 3 or 4 accredited seminaries (and have the seminary provide those to the military) to say that LBU's coursework was acceptable at their seminaries (as equivalent to accredited). This is mandatory for unaccredited seminaries and no easy task based on what a military chaplaincy recruiter told me.

Unfortunately, the good old boy system is alive and well in Christian circles too. Endorsements really carry the same value as infomercials. Jack Van Impe and Hans Koch (deceased), who had a real doctorate from Basel, endorsed Christian Bible College (see http://www.christianbiblecollege.org/ and click testimonies ) in Rocky Mount, NC, which is a degree mill run by Cecil Johnson who boasts a string of degree mill sheepskins (His only real degree is a Th.G. from Tabernacle Baptist Bible Institute of Virginia Beach, VA). Additionally, D. James Kennedy lists an honorary doctorate from CBC (see http://www.knoxseminary.org/Prospective/Faculty/fulltime.asp and click information) and Frank B. Minirth is listed on the board (I don’t know how this happened). It seems that Johnson just mailed the honorary degree to Kennedy and he listed it as one of his degrees. The degree does more good for CBC than D. James Kennedy who really doesn’t need another degree especially from CBC. Andersonville similarly awarded an honorary doctorate to a friend of mine. This college business is rather like the endorsements on book jackets by people who deny having seen or read the book when I ask them personally.

Unfortunately, people don’t always check out things but they accept them at face value. It’s all about Christian politics.

In addition, a quick google search turned up 3 or 4 professors at regionally accredited schools with doctorates from LBU. Admittedly, I have no idea whether it was their masters that got them the job rather than the PhD from LBU.

Yeah, you could find degree mill rags among accredited university faculty too. Folks just don’t ask or investigate.

I am not saying LBU is Dallas Theological Seminary but it may not be in the same league as Bethany, Andersonville, etc.

Perhaps the jury is still out.

On a side note, I had a Southern Baptist Chaplain friend with an accredited ThD who insisted that the Assemblies of God Seminary was a diploma mill. I have another friend who refers to Southern Methodist University as community college education at Ivy League prices.

Nord

 

[El_Guero]

Rhet,

You had your chance. Evidently, you wrote as much or more than you knew.

 

[Nord]

Paidagogos:

i) Check out LBU's web site for the statistics on the number of students. It says 1100. Although, it seems you are hoping it was more in order to put them in the same category as Bethany & Andersonville as having too many students. I would find it odd for LBU to be lying as one usually rounds numbers up not down.

ii)Thank you for sharing the information about several well known people receiving degrees from various diploma mills. Not relevant to the discussion of LBU or the point you were tring to make...but interesting.

iii) Thank you for sharing your opinion that LBU's doctorate is not academic. That is your opinion. If you check degreeinfo.com there are discussions about what EdD's have faced in terms of getting respect for their degrees. Government workers refusing to call an Ed.D "Dr." because an Ed.D. is not a doctorate (or much less than a PhD). Just because that is someone's or many someones opinion does not make it fact.

iv) You did nothing to refute the fact of LBU's seeming growing (albeit minor) acceptance at accredited schools (eg Liberty U/Regents U (law school). You mean spiritedly dismiss faculty at accredited schools with LBU degrees. You did nothing to deal with the BBFI endorsement. BBFI is a denomination with over 4000 churches. You did nothing to deal with the acceptance by the US military due to the ability to get letters from 3 or 4 accredited seminaries each time someone applies to the chaplaincy attesting to the quality and acceptability of LBU degrees. Based on my discussions with chaplain recruiters this is no mean feat.

In short you managed to refute nothing and just making negative assertions about LBU because you don't like them, or whatever other reason does not an academic case make.

I think in terms of LBU one has to be realistic and fair minded. As you note they appear to be improving their programs. They are gaining in recognition and acceptance. One also has to be realistic about their negatives. They need more faculty with accredited degrees. They need fewer in grown faculty. And for anyone considering the degree they must be aware of the limitations in terms of use.

Nord

 

[Plain Old Bill]

I;ve been watching these threads and particioating for some time now.One school(Tyndale) out of Houston was dismissed out of hand.Thier faculty has many graduates from DTS as well as New Orleans,Grace,U of Texas,Liberty U,Oregon State,Georgetown,Yale,Southeastern Oklahoma State U.,John Brown U,Wheaton Grad School,Moody,Scofield Grad School,Troy State,U of Florida, as well as LBTS and Tyndale. Tyndale offers 20 hours of Greek,20 hours of Hebrew,8 hours of Latin as well as an in depth theology program.
When I was in the army we had West Point grads, ROTC grads, & OCS grads. All of these programs produced fine officers but there was a bit of snobbery about thier military education and a definite pecking order.I sense the same thing goes on here.We have the SB big 6 and then about 8 other schools that are considered good and everything else is a waste of time and something akin to a degree mill.I sense a great degree of bias and not much fair and balanced.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Nord:
Paidagogos:

i) Check out LBU's web site for the statistics on the number of students. It says 1100. Although, it seems you are hoping it was more in order to put them in the same category as Bethany & Andersonville as having too many students. I would find it odd for LBU to be lying as one usually rounds numbers up not down.

ii)Thank you for sharing the information about several well known people receiving degrees from various diploma mills. Not relevant to the discussion of LBU or the point you were tring to make...but interesting.

iii) Thank you for sharing your opinion that LBU's doctorate is not academic. That is your opinion. If you check degreeinfo.com there are discussions about what EdD's have faced in terms of getting respect for their degrees. Government workers refusing to call an Ed.D "Dr." because an Ed.D. is not a doctorate (or much less than a PhD). Just because that is someone's or many someones opinion does not make it fact.

iv) You did nothing to refute the fact of LBU's seeming growing (albeit minor) acceptance at accredited schools (eg Liberty U/Regents U (law school). You mean spiritedly dismiss faculty at accredited schools with LBU degrees. You did nothing to deal with the BBFI endorsement. BBFI is a denomination with over 4000 churches. You did nothing to deal with the acceptance by the US military due to the ability to get letters from 3 or 4 accredited seminaries each time someone applies to the chaplaincy attesting to the quality and acceptability of LBU degrees. Based on my discussions with chaplain recruiters this is no mean feat.

In short you managed to refute nothing and just making negative assertions about LBU because you don't like them, or whatever other reason does not an academic case make.

I think in terms of LBU one has to berealistic and fair minded. As you note they appear to be improving their programs. They are gaining in recognition and acceptance. One also has to be realistic about their negatives. They need more faculty with accredited degrees. They need fewer in grown faculty. And for anyone considering the degree they must be aware of the limitations in terms of use.

Nord

Nord,

Seldom do I personally address another poster on the open board—this is the usual function of the PM. However, I am addressing you because your post uses the informal logical fallacy known as “abusive ad hominem”. Now, I am not saying that you were rude or hateful toward me but you seemingly base your argument on personal things about me rather than whether my premises are true or my reasoning is valid. My intent and motivation are irrelevant to my argument. I have highlighted some of these things in your post for illustration. You are way off base in your assessment of thoughts and mental processes which puts you out on a limb since one person cannot read another’s mind. On what do you base your accusations of mean spirited and not fair? On the other hand the whole tone of your post seems defensive? Where do you find emotionally laden words in my post? I have highlighted the emotional words in your post.

Here are my cogent answers to your objections:
i. I was wrong about the enrollment. However, they do enroll in excess of 1,000 students, which is comparable to a fairly large seminary. The traditional seminaries are generally smaller. I don’t know the mix of graduate and undergraduate students. Overall, my point about enrollment is still in the ballpark although I was wrong on the numbers and the point is not as dramatic yet valid.
ii. I’m sorry that you couldn’t make the connection but this was in response to your idea that association with credible people gives credibility. I say not valid. People use other people, as I illustrated, to create an aura of respectability and credibility. These famous folks are so busy that they don’t have time to check out the details on everything they appear to endorse. That’s just the way it is. Like others, LBU uses name association of further their own ends. So, name association means nothing in the final analysis. Jack Van Impe endorses Christian Bible College, a degree mill. (BTW, he holds one of his doctorates from CBC.)
iii. Just how much do you know about LBU? I have followed this school since the 1970’s when it was run off of a mimeograph machine in the back of a church. Much of its philosophy was based on the write a big paper and get a degree philosophy. There was little consideration of originality, advancing knowledge, quality controls or scholarship. Some of this residual misdirection still seems to exist at LBU. For the Ed.D., their web site states: “The doctorate program in Christian School Administration consists chiefly of research projects that call for both academic research and practical application to the organization where you are presently employed.” I dunno about you but this sounds a little anemic to me for a doctorate. It’s the write a paper and get a degree scenario. I don’t see the academic qualifications in the faculty that would indicate academic rigor in their courses or the skills to demand high scholarship. The faculty did not have qualified professors who supervised their own doctorates to verify and instill rigor. Some even have definite degree mill rags.
iv. Endorsements mean nothing. This is good ole boy politics at the religious level. I don’t deny that many guys with big churches support this school. (Look at the connections of the LBU leadership with BBFI.) They carry clout because of their numbers but building a large church does not necessarily translate into scholarship and academic knowledge. Of course they like LBU because it is the source of their own doctorates, whether earned or honorary. It is embarrassing but I have friends with degree mill doctorates and they greatly laud the degree mill where they received their title.
v. Nord, I have neither the time nor inclination to go to great lengths in research and argument to justify my assessment but you can find some internal indicators in the LBU web site. Of course, this depends upon your knowledge and understanding of how these less than wonderful schools operate. For example, you noted that seven of the professors had their terminal degrees from accredited schools. This is true but what does it mean? So, what’s seven accredited degrees for 1,100 students? Like many schools of this genre, the entire listed faculty is not in resident and devoting a significant amount of time to the school—they are adjunct faculty. In this instance, I don’t think R. L. Hymers (pastor in CA), Chris Cagan (associate of R.L Hymers in CA) and Mal Couch (Tyndale Seminary) are there much. They are heavily involved in other ministries, which would leave little time for them to contribute to LBU. I suspect the same is true of the others in this listing. Similarly, you can find a number of IFB local church Bible colleges that list Lee Roberson as a faculty member. The man is over ninety years old, maintains a speaking itinerary and travels widely. They probably have him in to speak once a year and use his name and prestige for credibility. So, I really don’t think your argument for credibility based on the listed faculty is every convincing upon analysis.

 

[paidagogos]

How does LBU (Louisanna Baptist University) stand up to their own claims. The following quotes were taken from their web site http://www.lbu.edu/macquickfacts.html.

A pioneer in distance education

What does this mean? Were they first or does it mean they were innovative? What innovations did they pioneer? With the advent of the $50,000 law in CA, a lot of distance education schools emerged in the 1970’s.

LBU has one of the largest selection of courses; over 250 courses in Bible, Education, Counseling and Communications.

Compare this number with the number given below. Do they offer 250 or 400 courses?

While LBU is conservative in tradition we are progressive in 21st century learning practices

What are these progressive learning practices? I don’t think their technology compares with the streaming video and synchronized PowerPoint lectures of MIT and University of SC Medical School. I hardly think audio and CD’s are cutting edge 21st technology.

LBU has 30 years experience as a proven leader in non-traditional education.

In all my experience and study of non-traditional education, I have failed to find a single mention of LBU, except from their own mouth or supporters, as a leader in this area. They’re early imitators at best. UNISA, University of London (100+ years), Open University (180,000 students), Union Institute, Goddard College and Excelsior College (formerly Regents College) were the leaders. LBU picked up on a trend.

While new distance education schools are springing up all around the world LBU has both the experience and reliability to provide an efficient quality degree program tailored to your needs.

This is still all hubris.

LBU offers an interest free payment plan that is affordable. With tuition at $85.00 per credit hour and only $150.00 in enrollment and postage fees, LBU costs far less than most Bible colleges. You pay only $200.00 down and $100.00 in monthly payments to complete your degree.

Many small Bible colleges with limited facilities, such as LBU possesses, charge only $65 to $85 per credit. LBU has low overhead. More substantial Bible colleges (more facilities and better qualified faculty) are the ones charging the higher rates.

LBU offers the largest selection of distance education courses of any school in the world. With nearly 400 distance education courses you have lots of variety to choose from.

Well, which is it? 250 or 400? Now, I really don’t believe that they have the most distance education courses in the world! More than Open University (UK)? More than UNISA (120,000+ students)? Now, come on! Don’t expect me to believe this! How are they counting their courses? IMHO, this is not so much prevarication as it is ignorance of the distance education field.

LBU has over 35 adjunct and full-time professors holding doctorates in their fields who are committed to offering a first class off-campus program.

Now, how can 35 faculty members, most of whom are part-time at best, adequately teach 400 courses to 1,100 students? That’s greater than a 1:30 ratio (not good) if all the faculty were full-time. My hypothesis is that most of the faculty is very limited part-time with other ministries demanding most of their time. When do they teach or give personal attention to their students? How in the world did they write, produce, revise and update 400 quality courses? With a faculty of 35, it would mean each faculty member must write an average of ten courses. If they did two per year, a tremendous feat, it would take five years but the earlier courses need revision and updating by this time. Considering that the faculty is heavily part-time, this is even more incredible. Also, a first-class distance education production involves a lot of support personnel including audio, computer and video technicians. Does LBU have these? Distance education professors in secular universities usually have several graduate assistants who contribute significantly to the DE courses. IHMO, LBU is long on using superlatives and short on producing quality.

[ February 02, 2006, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: paidagogos ]

 

[EdSutton]

For crying out loud- Can someone, with more talent and ability than I have, find poor ol' paidagogos a GOOD online Seminary?

Sorry, as I was scanning the topics, I noted you had both the opening and latest post, and it struck me as humorous.

Ed

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by EdSutton:
For crying out loud- Can someone, with more talent and ability than I have, find poor ol' paidagogos a GOOD online Seminary?

Sorry, as I was scanning the topics, I noted you had both the opening and latest post, and it struck me as humorous.

Ed

As I and others have noted, there are some good online programs but these are not the quick and easy routes to a doctorate. My interest is in directing students away from degree mills to a decent education for their money. The degree mills are a ripoff by taking your money and giving you a near worthless piece of paper in exchange. A good seminary gives a good education to go along with the degree.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by EdSutton:
For crying out loud- Can someone, with more talent and ability than I have, find poor ol' paidagogos a GOOD online Seminary?

Sorry, as I was scanning the topics, I noted you had both the opening and latest post, and it struck me as humorous.

Ed

Ed, we must all see humor in life even if it is about ourselves. I pity people who cannot laugh at themselves.

On the other hand, we must see some things in a serious light. IMHO, the substandard and some out-right-fraudulent organizations flying the Christian banner hurt the testimony of Christ.

Therefore, my passion has been to point out and expose the things that harm the cause of Christ. Someone has to do this, as others are unwilling. It is better that we judge ourselves before we stand embarrassed before the world and ultimately before God. What do you think?

 

[El_Guero]

paidagogos

I took the traditional degree approach, I have not taken any of the courses from 'degree mills'.

However, I have noticed one thing over and over from these discussions. What is the objective? "What is and what is not a 'degree mill'?" Do we have a "list"? Do we have a definition?

I think it would be in the best interests of people looking to take a degree program to KNOW which institutions are actually accredited and which are not.

[ February 06, 2006, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: El_Guero ]