Concerning the C/A heated debates.

My argument is that if you just look at the subject of assurance - the guys with the best system/model/logic for assurance is the 4 point Calvinist system.

I am not arguing that ALL groups don't claim it "anyway" or in "some way".

Wouldn't you agree that the 4 point Calvinist that rejects Perseverance "logically" has the best most obvious solution for assurance?? (Regardless of what the Bible actually says on the subject of Perseverance).

Surely if I can see this - as an Arminian - a Calvinist should be able to see it.

If there is something to be gained (by way of efficient communication) then someone could say "My view is 5 Point Calvinism BUT I am not fully convinced about point 2 I just don't have a better solution yet".

But this still makes them a 5 pointer and it means that all of the 5 points are "of interest" to them. It also means that when exchanging with them - one should "assume" that they are at least in "Some level of agreement" with all 5 points.

A 3 Pointer can use the same rule-of-thumb.

This is much easier than walking through the numbers with each one posting.

AGreed. I think that those who start threads rely on the fact that a large group are known to be Arminian or 5 pointers and so will take a certain view.

However that does not mean that any given person has been hand-cuffed to take some view. They all "Seem" to feel free to post their own view when it comes down to it.

Don't you agree?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Bob..are you not coming into the debate....with a set group? what 3 points is a 3 point calvin? I mean...yes i know what most would say...but i'm saying..if someone wants to be a 3 point calvin...can he be point 3,4 and 5? that is 3 points too.

THE POINT...you lable people before they can speak
you tell other what they believe...
you keep making list that Calvinist MUST believe

THIS HURTS THE DEBATE

can i tell you what i believe? or must we count on you to tell the form?


if you think i'm wrong....take time..and read your post...page after page...

just a idea bob.


In Christ...Jmaes

 

I am also coming to the debate with a model and predefined group. -- Arminians.

I have no problem with someone labeling me as "Arminian" to get the gist of my position even though I may "clarify" some point where I differ from that general group. It is a time saver to be able to reference the model.

Typically when I speak about "calvinism" I am speaking less about "What James thinks" and more about what I see in 3 or 4 point or 5 point Calvinism.

I almost never say something like "Well James thinks that there is unlimited Atonement" if you will notice.

(JohnP is a different story since I am not always sure that Calvinism or Calvinists will be as bold in as JohnP in "Admitting" to the horrendous implications of the teaching. His "God is the author of Satan's sins" is a good example of a JohnP that I will reference from time to time.)

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

All i am saying is listen to others. Do not think you have heard it ALL before.

Just a idea

In Christ...James

BTW..i'm a 12 point....BIBLEist

bibleist..hum..i think i like it my new name.

Now i need to refine my 12 points

 

If a person is a 3 point Calvinist they are claiming that they reject limited atonement and they reject irresistable grace.

If one is a 4 point Calvinist - they are rejecting Perseverance of the Saints. A 3 pointer in that case can not be a 4 Pointer because they are not rejecting the same things.

My brand of Arminianism is sorta like a 2 point Calvinist.

If you would allow for a "redefinition" of "limited atonement" and unconditional election then I could make it to "4 points" but that would be confusing since it uses a different definition for those terms. Hence I would not use it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

YES YES YES i know bob what the classic answer is. anyone that has read can tell you this....but i was not asking

but what if i'm only a 1 point calvinist....and the one point is...irresistable grace.


I'm not asking you to TELL me bob. I'm saying...why don't you wait and listen before you throw on your lables. maybe someone else has another point. there may be a fresh new way of looking at it

the OP...why are these debate so heated??? i think it is the very reason. no one listens...they already think they KNOW what the other thinks...for they know the point games.

just a thought

with this post..i close my debate on this tread.


In Christ...james

 

More often than not the reply would be ....Syracuse football is better than WVU football. I'd mention something about the Mountaineers not having a team since Major Harris you would counter with rapier speed and wit....and meanwhile some poor Buckeye is wondering what happened to his team.

I lurk here often but post rarely. I used to be quite active but have reached a stage in my life where I don't have to always be right nor do I need to always "win". I'm also at the stage of life where I don't need to be in the middle of contention and strife. So I read, learn, keep what is useful and let the remainder lie.

 

Indeed "what if".

In that case I would ask you how your view rejects total depravity (since even I as an Arminian accept the "T").

I would claim that since you reject perseverance that you would have a great deail of interest in those points raised in favor of it - made by 3 and 5 point Calvinists.

I would marvel that you do not discuss this difference with them.

I would also expect to see you joining with Arminians who argue against Limited Atonement and unconditional election since in some mysterious way you have divorced that from irresistable grace.

In short there would be many discussions in which I would expect to find you making the same points for "God so loved the WORLD" as I do.

But since I have already seen you post on a few of those topics - and you don't typically post in favor of the Arminian view --...

Well you see how the obvious comes into play here.

Nothing would please me more.

JohnP has certainly shown quite a bit of that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

There is a lot to be said for lurking. I am glad people do it. Those who do probably get more benefit more often than many of those who post.

I myself like to find really good snippets posted here and then save them in my files as commentary. (But that means sifting through the "heat" in the heated debates and just getting to the substantive content. The "did-too, did-not" exchanges have to be omitted)

In Christ,

Bob

 

More often than not the reply would be ....Syracuse football is better than WVU football. I'd mention something about the Mountaineers not having a team since Major Harris you would counter with rapier speed and wit....and meanwhile some poor Buckeye is wondering what happened to his team.

</font>[/QUOTE]