Concerns of a former charismatic

The baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues, *IS NOT* the same thing as the gift of tongues!

Acts 2:4) And they were all *FILLED* with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This scripture says nothing about the gift of tongues! This gift of tongues is accompanied with the gift of interpretation, only after one has been filled with the Spirt of God.

Speaking in tongues; however God chooses to use them, have not ceased!

The Spirit of God, after being rejected by the Jews, was given to the Gentiles. After the times of the Gentiles, tongues will cease..not until!

The link below shows too much research to say that tongues have ceased.

For those who care..enjoy!

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/New-ch11.htm

MEE

 

Consider what Paul was saying. He was looking forward to looking into a mirror. Christ is not described as a mirror. He was looking forward to seeing Himself face to face. When we reach Heaven, or when we see Christ we shall see Christ face to face. That's not what the passage says. Paul is looking into a mirror. He will see HIMSELF face to face, and be fully known.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

He looks now into the Word of God, and the Word of God reveals certain things to him about himself--it convicts every time he reads it. It reveals truths when we read it. But when the Bible is perfected or completed (the two words are synonymous) then he will able to look into the mirror of God's Word far more clearly, and it will reveal his image even more clearly than ever before--convicting of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement--for God works through His Word.
DHK

 

Hogwash! The baptism of the Holy Spirit only took place (after Pentecost) when a person was saved, and that without any outward manifestations at all. Give evidence that the 3,000 in Acts 2 all spoke in tongues. They didn't. Give evidence that every believer spoke in tongues. They didn't.

Here was the real purpose of the filling of the Spirit:
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
--They spoke the Word of God with boldness. But you like to overlook verses such as these because they don't fit into your theology. There was no speaking in tongues here. The filling of the Holy Spirit brought forth a bold witness, not tongues.

This Scripture (in Acts 2) took place on the Day of Pentecost--an historical event that took place one day in history and only one day in history. It will never again be repeated. Are there tongues of fire hovering above head MEE?

The Spirit of God is given to ALL--Jew and Gentile that believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The early church was made up primarily of Jewish believers. All of the Apostles were Jews who had come to Christ. Tongues were a sign to the unbelieving Jews--those who rejected the gospel and remained in their unbelief. Then judgement came in 70 A.D., and the sign of tongues ceased. It was no longer needed. You have a cheap imitation of a gift that was given for a short period of time. The imitation of the gift that you have did not even start until the beginning of the 20th century. The link that you provide is easliy refuted and discredited. It gives double meanings to words not intended to mean tongues. It makes assumptions that people spoke in tongues where in fact they didn't and in some cases it twists history, and comes out with some outright lies.
DHK

 

Hogwash? Must have hit a nerve!

MEE

 

My concern though is this.. it is the comfortable factor. I am a lot more comfortable believing that tongues are not for this time, and I cling to the scripture that proves this like glue, even though, I have read the scripture (1 Cor 13:8) about a thousand times, and it doesnt really say that they have passed.. it just says that they will pass.
I am a lot more comfortable not having to have the faith that God still heals us of our illnesses today. I have heard great a number of baptists say that it has to be in God's will to heal you.. but I have read so many healing scriptures over the 9 years I have been saved, and I dont remember even one of them mentioning that sometimes it isnt God's will to heal you..

so, I think that sometimes I am just an unbelievin' believer. I am more comfortable if I dont have to have any faith in anything exept my salvation..

This worries me.
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Emily you should go with being confortable for right now and study the word and learn. There is no doubt that you know the Lord, just trust Him to lead you.
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you said:
I have been fed lies at my old church.. I know it. I know I didnt really have a secret "prayer language".. I know that God does not want everyone to be gazillionaire.. I dont believe there is any scriptural proof to praying in tongues as a "prayer language", but I dont see any scriptural proof that tongues WITH AN INTERPRETER has passed away. To be fair, at my old church, about 8 times out of 10, there was an interpreter.. but your "prayer language" was something different altogether.

I am sick of falling into wrong doctrine. I just keep praying that God will show me the truth in His word and that he would convict me as to whether or not these things that I hear are true.. I just wonder if anybody else has these concerns.

Emily
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In another post you said:
Actually, I think we found our church..

again, it is not my first pick, but I DO believe this time, that it is a place where my husband can grow. We should be meeting with the Pastor sometimes this week so I can ask all of my questions..

It is a southern baptist church.
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Just pray & let the Lord lead you and it should work out. God wants His children happy and I think He knows whats best for His kids.
BTW, Trust your gut feelings too (inner man/witness) and keep checking everything out with the word.

It sounds like you are doing the right thing by praying and asking God. I also know how good it is to have others that have been in the same situation and using this board as a sounding board (sometimes) helps. You will be in my prayers that the Lord will lead you to the right place to worship.

BTW, Hope the interview goes well with the pastor this week.

Our God is faithful and able!
Music4Him

 

No MEE, I have been saying that your positon is hogwash all the time. It is totally unsubstantiated by Scripture, an indefensible position, completely unjustifiable. I give you Scripture. You sidestep it and never answer it? Why? You have no answer?

Examples:
1. You have never demonstrated to this day that you can show someone how to be saved outside of the Book of Acts. Where is the plan of salvation given outside of the book of Acts? That should be a fairly simple question to answer.

2. Answer if Tongues are Biblical today, why do you speak them when the stipulation in 1Cor.14 is plainly put on them that women are to be silent and are not permitted at all to speak in tongues. Why are you in disobedience to the Scriptures.

3. Answer what foreign languages do you speak in when you speak in tongues. Either your interpreter can tell you, or if you interpret yourself, you can tell me. Otherwise what you have is of the devil. It is not of God. Read carefully what tongues is all about in these three chapters 1Cor.12-14.

4. Answer what your interpretation is concerning 1Cor.14:21,22 where Paul teaches that tongues is a sign to the unbelieving Jew. Are there unbelieving Jews in your church? What does this passage mean, if it was not meant for the Jews that did not believe in the first century during the times of the Apostles.

These are hard questions for you. You have failed to answer them. Why?
DHK

 

This really, really concerns me. Here's why:

A few years ago, I asked God to baptize me in His Holy Spirit, to fill me with His Holy Spirit, to give me more of Him. And I asked Him to give me the ability to speak in other tongues as evidence that I had been filled with the Holy Spirit, because I saw so many instances of this happening in the Bible, and I wanted it too.

Well, I expected this "new" language to just come flying out of my mouth, whenever God wanted it to. But after several months, it never happened. I thought "Oh well, I guess speaking in tongues is a gift of the Spirit that not everyone gets".

Then one night, I happened to be watching TBN or some other Christian station, and Jesse Duplantis happened to be preaching. I heard him say "So many of you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and have never gotten the evidence. It's because you're expecting this new language to start coming out of your mouth without you doing anything." "But", he said, "It's YOUR vocal cords. It's YOUR air. It's YOUR voice. YOU'VE got to speak what God has placed in you". (This may not have been his exact words, but it was close to this.)

So, that night, I knelt by my bed to pray as I always do. When I finished praying, I said "Lord, I thank you for baptizing me in your Holy Spirit, and I thank you for giving me the evidence of speaking in other tongues".

Then, I just started quietly speaking whatever sounds came to my mind. Yes, they were just sounds, probably not "words".

But after I had been doing this for about 15 seconds, all of a sudden I started speaking another language. What language is it? I haven't a clue.

But now, whenever I want to, I can pray in this other language. When I've prayed all I know to pray for, I pray in my prayer language that God has given me.

I've never prayed in this other language in the presence of others.

Since I've received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, I have felt closer to God than ever before. I have a burning desire to witness to others like I never had before. I have a desire to read God's word like I never had before (I simply cannot go a day without reading and studying the Bible). I have a desire to serve the Lord like I never had before.

But, you say that if I don't know what language it is that I am praying in, then it must be of the devil.

Why must it be in Spanish, or French, or Italian, or some other language that we would easily recognize? How many languages have there ever been in this world (including "dead" languages)? Doesn't God know each and every one of them?

And if this experience is "of the devil", it sure is a funny thing that I've got more of a desire to lead others to Christ and more of a desire to study God's word and more of a desire to hear God's word preached than ever before.

And yes, a couple of times God has given me the interpretation of what I just prayed in this other language, and it has been so awesome. It was always filled with praises to Him in words that I never would have thought to use myself. But, unfortunately, God didn't precede the interpretation with "By the way, Brian, the language you are speaking in is Aramaic".

Anyway, I would be really cautious about saying that speaking in tongues is of the devil.

In Christ,

Brian

 

Brian 30721,

I agree with you post, even though the Lord has not blessed me with this 'gift of tongues.' To keep it to the point-one time I fell out under the power of the Holy Spirit. What a joyful experience. I have always said that it is like the Lord is pouring liquid love into you entire being.

I do believe that everyone who is born again/saved/ is baptized at that time of faith into the Holy Spirit. Some Pentecostal people do not think this is true. When God saves a man or woman He is a Person and a Spiritual Being, meaning the Holy Spirit. You do not get baptized into the Spirit just a little at a time. [I Corinthians 12:13] I do, however, believe that as often as we sense the need, He will fill us with His Divine Presence. If we become lukewarm, when we ask of Him, He can do a deeper and greater work in our lives. Some will disagree also with this.

My belief is that if God desires that a Christian experience He will decide to do the work all by Himself; we of course, have to be a willing recipient. [I Cor. 12:11] Some on the board have accused people of trying to learn or to try to utter this 'gift of tongues.' I disagree most strongly with this foolishness. Some Christians while they are praying simply flow into this gift that is given to some brethren.

My Bible says that if I do not know how or what to pray for that the Spirit of God helps me so that the Godhead knows what is really in or on my heart. [Romans 8:26] This verse has been such a blessing to me as a pastor.

We might not always have our theology quite perfect, but He hears our childlike prayers and I must believe that He interprets the intent of our concerns.

Dr. Berrian

 

Emily,

I notice all the "tongues have ceased" people are at it again. Heres my 2 cents worth as well.

I do speak in tongues, but I know that not everybody will. It has nothing to do with salvation, you don't have to speak in tongues to get to heaven.

So if it makes you uncomfortable, then theres nothing wrong with finding another church. I believe that God has all the different denominations for a reason. Everyone does things a little different, but as long as we have the basics down, accept Jesus and receive eternal salvation, then we are all Gods children.

Some of us just have more to learn than others. And Lord knows I have plenty to learn.

God bless you in your quest for a church. Follow God and He will lead you to the right place.

Working for Him,

Tam,

 

It has nothing to do with salvation, you don't have to speak in tongues to get to heaven.

"Yet, my staunch apostolic(oneness/Jesus-only) daughter'n'law#3(& her mother), told me point-blank, I am on my way to hell, because I've never spoken-in-tongues;(even tho' the Lord saved me 50yrs ago)!

 

This really, really concerns me. Here's why:

A few years ago, I asked God to baptize me in His Holy Spirit, to fill me with His Holy Spirit, to give me more of Him. And I asked Him to give me the ability to speak in other tongues as evidence that I had been filled with the Holy Spirit, because I saw so many instances of this happening in the Bible, and I wanted it too.</font>[/QUOTE]There is a difference between the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the filling of the Holy Spirit. Every believer is baptized of the Holy Spirit into the family of God at the time of salvation. Every believer's experience is different to the extent that some may feel an experience of great joy and inner peace, while some may have almost no outward emotional experience at all. Emotions don't count. Faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ does. Emotions are just something extra that God gives.

Your first expectation was based on the false teaching promulgated by the Charismatic movement. The gift of tongues has ceased, and it is not a result of being saved. You rightly concluded after some time that it is not something everyone gets--in fact no gets it today. What they do get is an emotional high. (the Charismatics)

TBN is a bad station to watch, in view of the fact that it promotes so much false doctrine.
"You have been baptized and never got the evidence." What kind of garbage is that? We teach our children the very popular song:
"Jesus loves, this I know, For the Bible tells me so."
There is so much truth in that song.
What is the evidence of my salvation? How do I know that I am saved? How do I know that I have been baptized into the family of God--because--the Bible tells me so! NOT, because I have spoken in tongues or had any other emotional experience.

God had already baptized you into his family when you had trusted him as your Saviour. The evidence of that is in the promises of the Word of God. Speaking in tongues was something you wanted--a carnal desire, and so you began to do it. God did not give it to you. You gave it to yourself.

My point is made above. You gave it to yourself. This is not a gift of the Holy Spirit. Look at what you said. "I just started quietly speaking..." That's not the Holy Spirit; it is you.

Why you know it is not Biblical:
1. You don't know what language it was--it was gibberish. True tongues always has a translater, and if not the tongues-speaker is given the gift of interpretation himself. You didn't know what you were speaking. Here comes the possibility where you could have been praising Satan without knowing it.
2. Biblical tongues always takes place in the context of a local church in the form of a message or preaching. It is for the edification of the church, never in the form of prayer. It is not a selfish gift for one person. It (like every gift) was given for the edification of the whole church?
Question: Was the gift of healing given just to heal oneself, or given for the healing of all the church? I hope the answer is obvious. Tongues was given for the edification of the whole church. It is a person-gift--a selfish gift.

There is nowhere in the Bible where we have evidence that tongues is for prayer. That is unbiblical. It is always for the edification for the whole church. It is always for an entire congregation. It is always in a real foreign language to be interpreted by someone else. There is no such thing as a special prayer language.

Then what you do is not Biblical, and it is fruitless.

Why an emotional experience would make you a better witness, I don't know. Perhaps in your heart you have simply determined to be that better witness in spite of your experience. All the better to you.
We are commanded to be filled with the Spirit, which is far different than baptized with the Spirit into the family of God. It is also different than any second blessing that the Charismatics speak of. The command of being filled with the Holy Spirit is given in Eph.5:

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

A person submits himself to the power of alcohol to the extent that the alcohol has power over him. A person needs to submit himself to the Holy Spirit to the extent that the Holy Spirit has power over him. It has nothing to do with tongues. Check Acts 4:31, how they were filled with the Holy Spirit, and spoke the Word of God with boldness. It is for the purpose of witnessing. To be filled with the Holy Spirit, one must be willing to submit themselves to the Holy Spirit, to be obedient to Him, completely in all things. It is not a matter of emotions or experiences; it is a matter of obedience to God's Word, and a willingness to sacrifice in order to obey.

It can lead to the devil. Most often the source is ones own self. As I pointed out--you gave yourself the gift. You wanted it, so you began to speak in nonsense syllables. It wasn't anytning God or anyone else gave you. You did it. It was all of self.

Because that is what the word "tongue" means in the Greek, "language." The two words are used interchangeably in Acts 2. "How hear we every man in our own "language" (tongue)? You have heard, no doubt, of the expression "mother tongue." What is yours? The word, tongue, means "language." Aside from the organ in your mouth, that is all it ever meant. It never had the meaning of gibberish--which people speak in today and call it speaking in tongues. It always meant languages.

As mentioned:
1. The experience you had is probably simply a result of an emotional experience that you or self wanted to have, and therefore had it--not necessarily that the devil gave it to you. My warning is that it could lead to demonic activity because it leaves the mind open to such activity, especially since you don't know what you are saying.
2. God uses people in spite of their short comings. If you have a determination to serve God, then God bless you. Go out and serve him.

Then how do you know if that interpretation is correct? Or if it is just the subconscious thoughts of your mind surfacing. You don't know.

I would really be cautious about engaging in an activity that is clearly anti-Biblical.
DHK

 

This really, really concerns me. Here's why:

A few years ago, I asked God to baptize me in His Holy Spirit, to fill me with His Holy Spirit, to give me more of Him. And I asked Him to give me the ability to speak in other tongues as evidence that I had been filled with the Holy Spirit, because I saw so many instances of this happening in the Bible, and I wanted it too.

Well, I expected this "new" language to just come flying out of my mouth, whenever God wanted it to. But after several months, it never happened. I thought "Oh well, I guess speaking in tongues is a gift of the Spirit that not everyone gets".

Then one night, I happened to be watching TBN or some other Christian station, and Jesse Duplantis happened to be preaching. I heard him say "So many of you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and have never gotten the evidence. It's because you're expecting this new language to start coming out of your mouth without you doing anything." "But", he said, "It's YOUR vocal cords. It's YOUR air. It's YOUR voice. YOU'VE got to speak what God has placed in you". (This may not have been his exact words, but it was close to this.)

So, that night, I knelt by my bed to pray as I always do. When I finished praying, I said "Lord, I thank you for baptizing me in your Holy Spirit, and I thank you for giving me the evidence of speaking in other tongues".

Then, I just started quietly speaking whatever sounds came to my mind. Yes, they were just sounds, probably not "words".

But after I had been doing this for about 15 seconds, all of a sudden I started speaking another language. What language is it? I haven't a clue.

But now, whenever I want to, I can pray in this other language. When I've prayed all I know to pray for, I pray in my prayer language that God has given me.

I've never prayed in this other language in the presence of others.

Since I've received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, I have felt closer to God than ever before. I have a burning desire to witness to others like I never had before. I have a desire to read God's word like I never had before (I simply cannot go a day without reading and studying the Bible). I have a desire to serve the Lord like I never had before.

But, you say that if I don't know what language it is that I am praying in, then it must be of the devil.

Why must it be in Spanish, or French, or Italian, or some other language that we would easily recognize? How many languages have there ever been in this world (including "dead" languages)? Doesn't God know each and every one of them?

And if this experience is "of the devil", it sure is a funny thing that I've got more of a desire to lead others to Christ and more of a desire to study God's word and more of a desire to hear God's word preached than ever before.

And yes, a couple of times God has given me the interpretation of what I just prayed in this other language, and it has been so awesome. It was always filled with praises to Him in words that I never would have thought to use myself. But, unfortunately, God didn't precede the interpretation with "By the way, Brian, the language you are speaking in is Aramaic".

Anyway, I would be really cautious about saying that speaking in tongues is of the devil.

In Christ,

Brian </font>[/QUOTE]Questions?
1. How do you KNOWit is of God? What evidence do you have since Buddhists and Hindus claim the same experience although their gods are not the Lord God Jehovah. Kundalini Yoga, Sathya Sai, Subud, Quqong, Shakers and others claim the same tongues-speaking experience as the Charismatics. So, how do you KNOW that your experience is of God?


2. The "tongues" of the NT are simply known and recognizable languages of that day and time. At Pentecost, the Bible specifically says that the hearers heard in their own language. Why don't we hear recognizable languages today if this is Biblical? I have been in numerous tongue-speaking services but I have never heard even one of the several languages that I know.

Some of my friends are descendants of German immigrants whose relatives speak German. One uncle, who was in a tongues-speaking service, rose to his feet and began speaking in German. When he finished, someone stood and gave an interpretation which was entirely different from anything he said.

Hypnosis and other altered states of consciousness are observable phenomenon but they have nothing to do with the Holy Spirit or God. Gurus and shamans are able to produce similar effects. Shirley MacLane can spin yarns of her light experiences too but she is an ungodly New Ager. So, where’s your evidence? There’s no REAL Scriptural basis.

 

Granny Gumbo,

Well, bless your heart!! Some people just don't read their bible do they?

Heres the answer for that dear sweet lady you quoted.

1 Cor. 12-29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.

Of course the answer is no, not everybody does. But then, I'm guessing you haven't been losing any sleep over her statement, have you??



Working for Him,

Tam

 

You can't defend the latter (a special prayer language) at all. That doctrine is man-made. It is not in the Bible. It can't be defended by the Bible. It has as much Scripture to defend it as purgatory does--none.
DHK

 

Brian30721, I knew when I read your post that you were in for a ride.

If you listen to some, on this board, they will have you standing on your head stacking bee bees. Just ignore them! Talk to your pastor!

When you prayed to the Lord Jesus Christ and you spoke with other tongues, that was your evidence, from God, that you had been filled with His Spirit.

If the Voodoo and Hindu religions speak in tongues, then it is not of God because they *DON'T* worship Jesus Christ.

Luke 11:11-13

11) If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12) Or if he sahll ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the *HOLY SPIRIT* to them that ask him?

Keep the faith Brian!

MEE

 

The Holy Spirit is not the gift of tongues. That's a leap of blind faith.
DHK

 

Amen Tam!
So much easier when you got them 1Cor.(ch.12)gifts of the Spirit to help you along the way.
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Someone asked how do you know what you got is of the Lord?
Test of the Spirits control....1Cor.12:1-3
Examine yourself...........2Cor.13:1-10 by checking out the works of the flesh in Gal.5:19-21
(if you got any of this going on in your life.... more than likely your under control of bad/seducing spirits)....Have a get to know Jesus meeting and repent!
Then check your fruits....... Gal.5:22-26

But you said you have the desire to witness and read the word and to serve the Lord........sounds like your on the right track.
Also read John 14:8-21 what Jesus said to Phillip.

BTW, someone said.... To be filled with the Holy Spirit, one must be willing to submit themselves to the Holy Spirit, to be obedient to Him, completely in all things. It is not a matter of emotions or experiences; it is a matter of obedience to God's Word, and a willingness to sacrifice in order to obey.

It sure sounds like you want to be obeidient and desire the good gifts.

And remember what Jesus said to the scribes Mark 3:22-30
So stay in the Word and build yourself up to be a stong man.

 

Emily,

The prayer language is described in the following verses:

Romans 8-26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Sometimes don't know what to pray for someone, what to pray about some situation, but the Holy Spirit knows, so thats when we pray in the spirit, (in our prayer language).

Now you boys that don't beleive any of this, don't get you knickers in a wad, cause this post is not for you!!

Like Music said, it's easier when you got 'em!!

And by the way, you people are W A Y to late to talk me out of it. I have been baptized in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues for 32 years. Been saved for 34. I do interpret tongues also, sometimes I receive a word of knowledge, and I have descerning of spirits when I need it.

Working for Him,

Tam,

 

The Holy Spirit is not the gift of tongues. That's a leap of blind faith.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]When did I ever say that the Holy Spirit was the "gift of tongues?" Never! The "gift of tongues" is always followed with the "gift of interpretation." Neither are required for salvation...but the baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced with speaking in tongues, is required. You have to have the *SPIRIT of GOD* or you are none of His. Speaking with tongues is the evidence of receiving the Spirit; not the Spirit of God.

Romans 8:9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

On the Day of Pentecost was the first time that the Spirit of God was given to ALL that believed. How do we know that it was poured out?....they spoke in tongues as the Spirit of God gave them the utterance. This outpouring was prophesied by the prophet Joel. (Joel 2:28)

Acts 2:33) Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this which ye now see and hear.

How many, on this board, that do speak in tongues, will say that they received the "gift of tongues" when they spoke in tongues for the first time?
They won't; because they will tell you that they received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. That's what was asked for and that was what was given.

MEE