Conditional election

[Dr. Walter]

The Conditional electionist refuses to believe God's estimation of all men as foreseen by God in Psalms 14:2-3:

Psa. 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


This is no doubt the description of the wicked but Paul quotes it and applies it to ALL GENTILES and ALL JEWS (Rom. 3:9-12) and his conclusion is that it has reference to "EVERY MOUTH" and "ALL THE WORLD" so that "NO FLESH" escapes this judgement.

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.....19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

David and Paul have God looking down to see if there are any that will seek after God and they find NONE whereas conditional electionists have God looking down to see and they find MULTITUDES that "seek" God and "understand" God.


Paul has God choosing them "TO" salvation and belief of the truth (2 Thes. 2:13) but the conditional electionist has God choosing them BECAUSE OF belief of the truth.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


Paul has God choosing them before the world began so that they "SHOULD BE HOLY" but conditional electionists have God choosing them before the world began BECAUSE OF some foreseen holiness/goodness seen in them not seen in others.

Eph. 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Paul has God choosing them before the foundation of the world NOT BASED UPON ANY Post-birth good or bad actions but conditional electionists have God choosing them before the foundation of the world due to foreseen "good" post-birth actions:

Rom. 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,[/U] that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


Paul has only as many as were ordained to eternal life believing the gospel but the conditional electionist has as many as believed being ordained to eternal life:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

The conditional electionist must REVERSE the order of every cause and consequence listed in the above verses.

 

[steaver]

The Conditional electionist refuses to believe God's estimation of all men as foreseen by God in Psalms 14:2-3:

Psa. 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


This is no doubt the description of the wicked but Paul quotes it and applies it to ALL GENTILES and ALL JEWS (Rom. 3:9-12) and his conclusion is that it has reference to "EVERY MOUTH" and "ALL THE WORLD" so that "NO FLESH" escapes this judgement.

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.....19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

David and Paul have God looking down to see if there are any that will seek after God and they find NONE whereas conditional electionists have God looking down to see and they find MULTITUDES that "seek" God and "understand" God.


Paul has God choosing them "TO" salvation and belief of the truth (2 Thes. 2:13) but the conditional electionist has God choosing them BECAUSE OF belief of the truth.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


Paul has God choosing them before the world began so that they "SHOULD BE HOLY" but conditional electionists have God choosing them before the world began BECAUSE OF some foreseen holiness/goodness seen in them not seen in others.

Eph. 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Paul has God choosing them before the foundation of the world NOT BASED UPON ANY Post-birth good or bad actions but conditional electionists have God choosing them before the foundation of the world due to foreseen "good" post-birth actions:

Rom. 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,[/U] that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


Paul has only as many as were ordained to eternal life believing the gospel but the conditional electionist has as many as believed being ordained to eternal life:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

The conditional electionist must REVERSE the order of every cause and consequence listed in the above verses.

Is that the same as a conditional salvationist?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

 

[Dr. Walter]

Is that the same as a conditional salvationist?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

No! Election is unto salvation - election is not salvation. However, since election is UNTO salvation - salvation is certain for the elect and yet through the appointed means to bring them to salvation - regeneration/conversion to the gospel - progressive sanctification and ultimate glorification:

Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[steaver]

No! Election is unto salvation - election is not salvation. However, since election is UNTO salvation - salvation is certain for the elect and yet through the appointed means to bring them to salvation - regeneration/conversion to the gospel - progressive sanctification and ultimate glorification:

Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

I can agree with all you posted here.

The real issue is why?

Why are the saved called the elect from the foundation of the world?

Is it because God caused them to be born again apart from any personal acceptance of God?

Or

Is it because God knew those who would accept His testimony and call upon Him having then God grant them a rebirth in Christ?

 

[Dr. Walter]

I can agree with all you posted here.

The real issue is why?

Why are the saved called the elect from the foundation of the world?

Is it because God caused them to be born again apart from any personal acceptance of God?

Or

Is it because God knew those who would accept His testimony and call upon Him having then God grant them a rebirth in Christ?

Neither! God elected them TO salvation THROUGH sanctification (setting apart) of the Holy Spirit AND belief of the truth - 2 Thes. 2:13-14.

 

[billwald]

God is like a boy playing with toy soldiers. He knows who will win before the game begins?

 

[Dr. Walter]

God is like a boy playing with toy soldiers. He knows who will win before the game begins?

Omniscience demands that. However, it is much more complicated than mere "toy soldiers"

 

[steaver]

Omniscience demands that. However, it is much more complicated than mere "toy soldiers"

Much more complex I would say and maybe complicated for many who struggle to find harmony between "election" and "whosoever will".

 

[quantumfaith]

Omniscience demands that. However, it is much more complicated than mere "toy soldiers"

Precisely, We love and worship a God that defies all attempts to completely rationalize him with ANY theology. His omniscience is quite capable of permitting the indeterminancy inherrant within quantum mechanics and yet completely able to detemine the final outomes of history. A God who is quite capable of juxtaposing compatibilism and inconpatibilsm, monergism and synergism, free will and determinism.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Precisely, We love and worship a God that defies all attempts to completely rationalize him with ANY theology. His omniscience is quite capable of permitting the indeterminancy inherrant within quantum mechanics and yet completely able to detemine the final outomes of history. A God who is quite capable of juxtaposing compatibilism and inconpatibilsm, monergism and synergism, free will and determinism.

Did walter say that?

 

[RAdam]

Look, if God looked down on man and saw that none would seek after Him, that is pretty clear that He didn't foresee faith in man naturally. If He saw that none would seek Him, that means He saw that none would believe the gospel, accept Christ, etc. Man naturally will not seek after God, will not receive the things of the Spirit of God.

 

[quantumfaith]

Did walter say that?

Well, I am not certain, enlighten me .....gently.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Precisely, We love and worship a God that defies all attempts to completely rationalize him with ANY theology. His omniscience is quite capable of permitting the indeterminancy inherrant within quantum mechanics and yet completely able to detemine the final outomes of history. A God who is quite capable of juxtaposing compatibilism and inconpatibilsm, monergism and synergism, free will and determinism.

Therefore. We can consider that "Jesus died for everybody without exception but that the blood he shed was applied to God's elect only and made effectual as a consequence of Christ's intercession at the Father's right hand"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Therefore. We can consider that "Jesus died for everybody without exception but that the blood he shed was applied to God's elect only and made effectual as a consequence of Christ's intercession at the Father's right hand"

Well said! :thumbs:

 

[quantumfaith]

Therefore. We can consider that "Jesus died for everybody without exception but that the blood he shed was applied to God's elect only and made effectual as a consequence of Christ's intercession at the Father's right hand"

OK, thanks Thinkingstuff, but now I need to enlightened on the enlightenment.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

OK, thanks Thinkingstuff, but now I need to enlightened on the enlightenment.

:laugh:...............

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

OK, thanks Thinkingstuff, but now I need to enlightened on the enlightenment.

Perhaps some scripture to back it up:

Acts 2:21: "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Romans 5:6: "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly."

2 Corinthians 5:14-15: "For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again."

1 Timothy 2:3-4: "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

1 Timothy 2:5-6: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given in its proper time."

1 Timothy 4:10: "We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe."

Titus 2:11: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."

Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."

My gosh TS, are you forgetting where you are my brother? Please use scripture to clarify for our brother Quantum. In any event, thats the KY he was looking for.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Perhaps some scripture to back it up:

Acts 2:21: "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Romans 5:6: "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly."

2 Corinthians 5:14-15: "For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again."

1 Timothy 2:3-4: "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

1 Timothy 2:5-6: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given in its proper time."

1 Timothy 4:10: "We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe."

Titus 2:11: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."

Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."

My gosh TS, are you forgetting where you are my brother? Please use scripture to clarify for our brother Quantum. In any event, thats the KY he was looking for.

Those are great verses. However, the limited attonment guys will say the scripture really means all kinds of men. Rather than what Jesus and Paul and whoever wrote hebrews actually meant. ALL MEN.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Those are great verses. However, the limited attonment guys will say the scripture really means all kinds of men. Rather than what Jesus and Paul and whoever wrote hebrews actually meant. ALL MEN.

Truth will out.:jesus:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hey....Where is Doc Wally today? Perhaps on Vaca!