Conditional election

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I would agree, we are going way off track here. Again we are talking about Conditional Election / Unconditional l election. I wanted to add Limited & Unlimited Atonement because I feel it links to the discussion, but now we are going far afield. Lets stay on track please.

 

[quantumfaith]

I would agree, we are going way off track here. Again we are talking about Conditional Election / Unconditional l election. I wanted to add Limited & Unlimited Atonement because I feel it links to the discussion, but now we are going far afield. Lets stay on track please.

EWF: I agree most completely

The personal sniping and tossing of terms such as "heresy" and the like is unbecoming and beneath men and women of faith and integrity. We should all take a deep breath and have a reasoned and adult discussion concerning the OP, "unconditional election.

Scripture teaches that we will know "false teachers" by their fruit, (Matthew 7:16). The unfortunate thing with this board is that we are not able to experience the lives of our colleagues on this board. So then, if someone claims that Christ did not come in the flesh or he did not rise from the grave, then we can make them "anathema".

Otherwise, lets all get the sand out of our shorts and discuss things reasonably, rationally and seasoned with the compassion and grace that God has so graciously granted us.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

QF: Otherwise, lets all get the sand out of our shorts and discuss things reasonably, rationally and seasoned with the compassion and grace that God has so graciously granted us.

HP: Sound advice for the fair-minded:thumbs:………. but it is IMPOSSIBLE for some to be fair towards others which whom they disagree. They CANNOT seem to help themselves from personally attacking the other when they have no sound reason or logic to dispute the truth. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Dr. Walter]

Scripture teaches that we will know "false teachers" by their fruit, (Matthew 7:16). The unfortunate thing with this board is that we are not able to experience the lives of our colleagues on this board.

There is the fruit of their lips, fruit of their doctrine and fruit of their labors. Those immediately described in Matthew 7:21-23 professed fruit of lips ("Lord, Lord...in thy name") and labors ("have we not done many good works")but still went to hell. Their doctrine was false.

You don't have to examine the fruit of ones labors to know they are "accursed" as you just need to read their words about the gospel they believe, teach and preach (Gal. 1:8-9).

We all respond according to how each of us understands and interprets the Word of God. You pick and choose from God's Word how you think you and everyone else should respond to each other. I don't think we have the right to simply "pick and choose" but we must also embrace the more harsher statements that God's Word has for those who TEACH a false gospel (Gal. 1:8-9) and teach absolute heresies (Rom. 16:17; 2 Thes. 3:6; etc.). If the shoe fits, wear it. If it does not, then don't worry about it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: Their doctrine was false.

HP: You say my doctrine is false. Play the man. Say what you believe. You have state repeatedly that my beliefs are heresy. Is my fate in your opinion hell?

 

[Dr. Walter]

but it is IMPOSSIBLE for some to be fair towards others which whom they disagree. They CANNOT seem to help themselves from personally attacking the other when they have no sound reason or logic to dispute the truth. :smilewinkgrin:[/FONT][/COLOR]

The Greek terms behind the translation of "impossible" and "cannot" in the texts we are discussing mean "WITHOUT POWER." Find any Greek scholar, Greek Lexicon that disputes that!!! The English terms mean it. The Greek terms behind the translation into English means it.

Your philosophical arguments about "blind men" is based upon false logic. If it were used in Biblical texts of the ability of the human nature APART FROM GOD'S POWER to change blindness into sight then it would remain impossible APART FROM GOD'S POWER. Your logic is based upon God's power to change what is impossible for human ability. However, in reference to our discussion there is no power ABOVE God to change what God says is "impossible" for Him to do - LIE! Hence, this impossibility is due to His own immutable moral nature as lying is a moral act. If it is "impossible" for God to choose to lie then it is not a matter of OPTIONAL CHOICE but a matter of immutable NATURE. If not, then God would never use a Greek term that literally means "WITHOUT POWER" or "WITHOUT ABILITY."

You go ahead and ridicule and change words to mean what you want them to mean as it only hurts you.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW, it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for me to believe what you set forth on this board concerning issues of unconditional election, the clear implications of double predestination, limited atonement, OSAS etc. as it is not the truth and is not taught in the Word of God. I simply CANNOT believe it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: Their doctrine was false.

DW. you say my doctrine is false. Play the man. Say what you believe. You have state repeatedly that my beliefs are heresy. Is my fate in your opinion hell?

 

[Dr. Walter]

DW, it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for me to believe what you set forth on this board concerning issues of unconditional election, the clear implications of double predestination, limited atonement, OSAS etc. as it is not the truth and is not taught in the Word of God. I simply CANNOT believe it.

I Cor. 2:14; Rom. 8:7

 

[Dr. Walter]

DW. you say my doctrine is false. Play the man. Say what you believe. You have state repeatedly that my beliefs are heresy. Is my fate in your opinion hell?

Saved persons can be led to embrace a false gospel by false teachers. If their salvation experience was all about what God did to save them through simple faith in the sufficiency of Christ, without at the same time embracing works, baptism, church membership, etc. for salvation then they can be truly saved but misled persons.

However, if from the beginning they have embraced a gospel that includes a partnership plan (Mt. 7:22-23) between what Christ did and they do then like all who embrace a false gospel they are "accursed" and hell is their home.

 

[RAdam]

You know, there are a few passages in which modern day bible students want to interpret the word "world" to mean every single individual without exception. But there are passages that obviously show that this isn't the bible definition of that word.

1 John 5:19 - "And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness."

Obviously "whole world" cannot mean every single individual without exception, if for no other reason than there is an exception made here. The exception is "we are of God."

John 17:9 - "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

Now, we can argue over who the "them which thou hast given me" are, but the indisputable fact is there is an exception to the word "world" here that Jesus isn't praying for.

John 15:18 & 19 - "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."

Again, you see that world is not used in the scripture as a term meaning universally without exception.

The same could be said for the phrase "all men."

John 11:48 - "If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: adn the Romans shall come and take away our place and nation."

Again, it is obvious that the bible is not using this phrase to be meant universally without exception.

The best bible dictionary is the bible itself. Men try to force a definition on a word, but we must see how the bible uses that word.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You know, there are a few passages in which modern day bible students want to interpret the word "world" to mean every single individual without exception. But there are passages that obviously show that this isn't the bible definition of that word.

1 John 5:19 - "And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness."

Obviously "whole world" cannot mean every single individual without exception, if for no other reason than there is an exception made here. The exception is "we are of God."

John 17:9 - "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

Now, we can argue over who the "them which thou hast given me" are, but the indisputable fact is there is an exception to the word "world" here that Jesus isn't praying for.

John 15:18 & 19 - "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."

Again, you see that world is not used in the scripture as a term meaning universally without exception.

The same could be said for the phrase "all men."

John 11:48 - "If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: adn the Romans shall come and take away our place and nation."

Again, it is obvious that the bible is not using this phrase to be meant universally without exception.

The best bible dictionary is the bible itself. Men try to force a definition on a word, but we must see how the bible uses that word.

So what you are advocating is that God is an elitist. I think the Jews in Jesus day had this problem.

But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

 

[Dr. Walter]

You know, there are a few passages in which modern day bible students want to interpret the word "world" to mean every single individual without exception. But there are passages that obviously show that this isn't the bible definition of that word.

1 John 5:19 - "And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness."

Obviously "whole world" cannot mean every single individual without exception, if for no other reason than there is an exception made here. The exception is "we are of God."

John 17:9 - "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

Now, we can argue over who the "them which thou hast given me" are, but the indisputable fact is there is an exception to the word "world" here that Jesus isn't praying for.

John 15:18 & 19 - "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."

Again, you see that world is not used in the scripture as a term meaning universally without exception.

The same could be said for the phrase "all men."

John 11:48 - "If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: adn the Romans shall come and take away our place and nation."

Again, it is obvious that the bible is not using this phrase to be meant universally without exception.

The best bible dictionary is the bible itself. Men try to force a definition on a word, but we must see how the bible uses that word.

Good observations! Indeed, the term "world" is used at the very minimum seven different ways in the Scriptures.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

OK Doc Wally....where did we leave off with Conditional Election? I am a 4 Part Calvinist so I do believe in Augustine's & Paul's tenants & when scripture tells me I am but filthy rags so I disregard the "sounding brass & clanging cymbal's" around me (Hint , Nudge) :smilewinkgrin:. With that said, Is there anything else you'd care to expound on (hopefully without being attacked from all sides)?

If not thanks for your insights into Scripture.

 

[Dr. Walter]

OK Doc Wally....where did we leave off with Conditional Election? I am a 4 Part Calvinist so I do believe in Augustine's & Paul's tenants & when scripture tells me I am but filthy rags so I disregard the "sounding brass & clanging cymbal's" around me (Hint , Nudge) :smilewinkgrin:. With that said, Is there anything else you'd care to expound on (hopefully without being attacked from all sides)?

If not thanks for your insights into Scripture.

I don't agree with all of Calvins points. I don't agree with his "perseverance" of the Saints as interpreted by many Calvinists. I do believe in total depravity, unconditional election, definite atonement, effectual call and preservation of the saints in faith.

However, for many years I embraced sufficiency for all but efficiency for the elect in regard to the atonement so I can appreciate your present position.

 

[RAdam]

So what you are advocating is that God is an elitist. I think the Jews in Jesus day had this problem.

I'm not advocating that God is an elitist. Where did you get that? I'm telling you how the bible uses those terms.

Here is something else the bible says: that God's people form an innumerable (to us) multitude out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Also

1 John 5:19 - "And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness."

Obviously "whole world" cannot mean every single individual without exception, if for no other reason than there is an exception made here. The exception is "we are of God."

Actually it does The exception is indicated in the passage and even so the "we" are wicked save by the grace of God.

John 17:9 - "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

Now, we can argue over who the "them which thou hast given me" are, but the indisputable fact is there is an exception to the word "world" here that Jesus isn't praying for.

the greek like the english indicates a generality. It doesn't mean Jesus cares less about the rest of the world.

John 15:18 & 19 - "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."

The world in this instance is a system. And it means a system of its entirety.

Again, you see that world is not used in the scripture as a term meaning universally without exception.

With the system in mind it does.

The same could be said for the phrase "all men."

Depends on the context.

The best bible dictionary is the bible itself. Men try to force a definition on a word, but we must see how the bible uses that word.

Sounds like your forcing a definition with out regard to context but with regard to your system of belief.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I'm not advocating that God is an elitist. Where did you get that? I'm telling you how the bible uses those terms.

Here is something else the bible says: that God's people form an innumerable (to us) multitude out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation.

Yes it does. However, you can be multinational and still elitist. Note Hebrews were also multinational when they left egypt.

 

[RAdam]

I'm glad you brought up context. The context is key, I totally agree. The context of many uses of the terms many take to be universal without exception do not agree with that view.

 

[Dr. Walter]

So what you are advocating is that God is an elitist. I think the Jews in Jesus day had this problem.

Those scriptures speak for themselves. As for God, yes He is an elitist. He things He is God and no one else is. He thinks He is right and everyone must agree with him to be right. He thinks His way is the only way to heaven. He thinks everything existing should be for His praise and glory. He thinks His word is final and all who disagree with it are wrong! You can't get more elitist than that!

However, God has an elect people that He chose in Christ before the foundation of the world UNTO personal individual salvation and every single last one of them will be saved (Rom. 8:28-32) and not one lost (Jn. 17:2; 6:37-45; 10:28-30; 5:24). So, yes, God has an elite people. In the Old Testament God had an elite "nation" above all other nations (Deut. 7:5; 9:5-7).