Conditional Security Book

[DeafPosttrib]

ituttut,

You say:

It is NOW that we have received our atonement in Him (Romans 5:11), which lets us know we do not have to endure until the end to secure salvation

There is much debate about the atonement of the calvary. First of all. I believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. I believe Christ's blood wash all our sins away - NO LIMITED from beginning to the end. Securists saying that Christ's blood already paid all our sins at once. So, we don't have to be worry about our salvation, we are already now secured because of his blood.

My understanding of Calvary. During Old Testament times. Many high priests have to take animals and to make offering for to forgive people's sins often and often throough years to years. But, animals' blood cannot forgiven people's sins. They are not God.

When Christ was on the cross, and he yelled, "It is finished". He was not mean that our sins all are already paid off at once. He means, that he fulfilled Old Testament prophecies concerning of Him and Calvary. Also, he ended daily sacrifices of Daniel 9:27. That he is our Lamb, High Priest. No longer, we need high priests to take animal sacrifices to forgive our daily sins. We are God's priests, we have rights come to our Father(Christ), for to ask to forgive us our sins 24 hours daily. No matter HOW OFTEN, we commited sins in our daily life, we can ask Christ to forgive our sins with no limited, even include our future sins too.

The last part of the sentence of Rom. 5:11 as what you say: "...we do not have to endure until the end to secure salvation."

Apostle Paul doesn't saying it. You added it.

Paul did teaching us that we ought to be abide in Christ in Romans chapter 11, or, if we do not abide for Christ, then we might be removal or cast away same with John chapter 15.

Matt. 10:22 & 24:13 both were not speak toward to Jewish only, also, apply to us as followers either Jew or Gentile. That we ought to ne endure all the way to the end of our life or Christ comes.

You say:

THose of conditional salvation were the "covenant" people, those of the nation of Israel. They were saved under a different gospel.

This is type of dispensationalism doctrine. I disagree with it.

There is the only ONE plan of salvation throughout whole Bible from the beginning to the end, nothing change of salvation. Salvation always come base upon FAITH only.

Old Testament saints looking forward toward Calvary of their FAITH, just same as we looking backward toward Calvary of our FAITH.

Gal. 1:6-7 talking about watch out for any person teaching false gospel, which are not come from us. As these are fairy tales, or make-up doctrines which are not come from the Bible, or not come from the revelation of God. Paul, himself was taught by Jesus Christ in the desert for 3 years by through the revelation.

Of course, Judaziers were argue with early Christians Fathers(Peter, Paul, etc.) about the laws, that they ough to follow the laws.

Many Judaziers were not understand what the purpose of Calvary, what it was all about. Many Jews were missed God's plan of salvation since from the beginning. Abel, Noah, Abraham, etc. were saved by through their faith while the laws were not yet written.

There is the only ONE plan of salvation from the beginning to the end. Salvation only come through the FAITH only.

I hope that you understand what I am trying to telling you.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Martin]

three important words as what Christ said of an individul: 1. 'Shall come to me' 2. 'which seeth the Son' 3. and believeth on him'. Individual's responsible of salvation is- to make decision come to Christ and put faith on Christ as looking up on Christ and continue believing on Christ shall HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE long as a person continues follow Christ while believing in him same time, no wise cast out.

==You had me on board with you until this point. First problem I have is that the passage bases salvation upon the will of the Father not the will of man. People come to Christ because, and only because, the Father has given them to Christ and draws them to Christ (Jn 6:37). If the Father does not do this work they cannot be saved (Jn 6:44). Now if the Father draws them to Christ then they are predestined to be like Christ (Rom 8:29-30). So I don't understand how you can believe that God foreknows individuals, predestines them to be like Christ, calls and draws them to Himself, and saves them, yet there is still a chance they will not be transformed to Christ's image. I don't understand that. Also John 6:37-44 mentions nothing about "as long as". This is about the Father's will for the Son, and the Son's obeying that will. What is that will? That the Son lose nothing of all that the Father has given Him (Jn 6:38-39).

Same with John 15:4. If a person stopped follow Christ, shall be cast out - John 15:6.

==The problem I have with that understanding is that Scripture tells us that those who don't continue where not Christ's disciples (Jn 8:31, 15:8, 1Jn 2:19). So John 15:1-11 (ie vs6) is talking about those who are connected to Christ but do not have eternal life, thus they don't bear fruit. True disciples bear fruit (Jn 15:8).

Matthew 7:21-23 speaks of many religions, even include baptists too, shall saying to Lord sits on the throne, that they did good works for the Lord, at the judgment day. But, the Lord shall saying to them, that, He doesn't know them, and telling them to depart from him, go into everlasting fire, because of their work INIQUITY. Christ's point is, He don't care how good works we do for the Lord. But, our sins still hold in us, without confess our sins to the Lord, also do not actual repentance.

==What will Christ tell them? "I never knew you" (vs23). Christ knows His sheep and they continue to follow Him (Jn 10:27). He gives His sheep eternal life and they shall never perish (Jn 10:28, Jn 6:39). In fact Scripture tells us that Christ foreknew those who would be saved (Rom 8:29-30). These people in Matthew 7:21-23 are religious folks who have done good works, but they don't have a relationship with Jesus. Like Judas they were in the right places, around the right people, and had the right knowledge. Yet they did not have a personal relationship with God (which is eternal life - Jn 17:3).

Often, I hear many securists saying that a person is not saved AT THE FIRST PLACE. That is not correct. When the son decides want to leave his father, and go in his own way, then Christ simple saying this son is LOST- period. He speaks of spiritual.

==I think you are reading too much into a parable. However, given your point, I would argue that the fall is in view.

Luke 15:11-32 is so very, very clear prove us that, once a person who WAS WITH Christ, turn away already lost and DEAD. Period.

==If you accept your assumption about the text. If, as I have stated, that security is not even in view then your view is a result of reading too much into a parable.

I have no problem with Romans 9:11. Let's read verse 11 says: "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth".

This verse is speak of God is an omniscience. Means, God knows everything and future before we all were born. God already know know who will be saved, not only already 'saved', also, God already know who will follow Him before the creation.

==I don't think that is what the verse says. The verse says: "so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand". There is nothing there about God's omniscience. It is about God's choice of one over the other. What is His choice based on? Works? We agree the answer there is no. What is His choice based on? His purposes (see also Eph 1:3-14).

But look in 2 Peter 1:10 says, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give dilgence TO MAKE your calling and election SURE: IF YE DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL." Peter tells us, that we all are responsible to MAKE SURE of our calling and election, for IF we DO these things, shall never fall.

==Fall from what? Salvation? How can you fall from salvation if you have been predestined by an all knowing God to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29-30) who will not lose one of those the Father has given Him (Jn 6:38-39, 10:27-30)?

The verse is talking about being "certain" of God's "calling and choosing you", not about how to remain saved. The KJV translates the term in verse 10 as "fall", others translate it "stumble". If a person makes their calling and election sure they are not likely to stumble. There is nothing about falling from salvation here.

Christ already know, MANY were called, but FEW ARE CHOSEN. Why? Because all saints who were called by God(through the gospel), did follow Christ, but for a while tehn fall away, are NOT truly final chosen at the end.

==Wait a second. Christ said that all who are given to Him by the Father will come to Him and will be raised up by Him on the last day. There is no room for loss. And the context of Matthew 22:14 hardly supports your position here.

Now, I am asking you, please answer my question of Matt. 25:30, which one of 'outer darkness' is temporaily or everlasting punishment?? I am waiting on you.

==I don't understand your question. I don't believe that outdarkness is ever temporary. Please clearify your question so I will know what you are trying to ask. Thanks.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hi Martin.

Today, I am out of the town for vacation. I will return on Wednesday, and will reply back to you.

You saying that I talk too much or too much mind on Luke 15:11-32. As you saying it is a parable. You saying, this is not talking about security, it is about salvation. You are half correct saying it. Yes, the three parables of Luke chapter 15 talking about salvation. The first parable deals with our responsible as leaders, but, not only leaders, also every Christians are responsible for soul winning. The first parable of Luke chapter 15 talking about one lost sheep. Understand, in the FIRST PLACE, the shepherd already own ALL 100 sheep in the gate. When he realizes, there is a missing sheep in the gate. He cannot afford to lose his precious sheep. He have to look to find a lost sheep. When he finds sheep, he rejoicing and anoounce his friends that a lost sheep is found. Our responsible is to discipleship baby christians to growing in the LOrd. Too many of us fail to encourage them, we allow many christians turn away from the Lord, and then lost.

Second parable of Luke chapter 15 talk about lost coin. At the first place, a lady already owe all ten coins. She realizes she lose one coin of ten coin. She cannot afford to lose her coin. So, she have to look to find a lost coin.

Too many of us neglect christians who are now backslidding become lost again. allow them to be remain lost. We are responsible to bring them back to the Lord. That is the discipleship.

Notice, all of three parables always saying a person was in the position AT THE FIRST PLACE. Secondly, all three parables show that a person being to be realize (first of two parables)- a person have to be realize that person's belong is being lost. Person's responsible is to bring lost person back to the Lord. The first of two parables deal with toward other people. The third parable deals with us, our responsible to examine about our spiritual and relationship with Christ. Third parable shows that a person realizes that he/she is spiritually lost while turn away from the Lord. Our responsible is to repent of our sins, and turn back to the Lord, and be remain with the Lord.

Word, 'parable' in your mind, I am sure that you might say of this word of Luke chapter 15 does not take into literally, but given of examples. In your mind of Luke chapter 15 does not take seriously.

Well, I think you are wrong. Luke chapter 15 is very important. Of course, parable, itself doesn't take literally. But, understand, I consider, Jesus was the greatest teacher of the Church history. I believe , Christ was trying to explaining his followers to understand what his teaching is all about. My understanding Christ used many illustrations to use objects or persons to apply our spiritual with the purpose. All parables are not literal. BUT, these are apply our spiritual, that we are supposed to DO.

Understand?

On Wednesday, I will reply back to your comment from your recently previous post reply on me.

Have a nice day! God bless you! :thumbs:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!