Conditional Security Book

[westex93]

"With my conditional eternal security assumption, I have found no conflicting scriptures.

I didn't expect to convince any OSAS believers to change to conditional eternal security.

You know, you're probably exactly right. I made the same statement that I couldn't change anyones mind, so I guess I'm just taking the wrong approach, After all, no individual could change my mind on the subject, it was only by revelation of the Holy Spirit.

So with that in mind, I will only post some scriptures in response to your statement on "no conflicting scriptures" rather than argue the point. All I ask is that you honestly look over each and do your own study to see if any conflict your position. Granted, some of these are stronger than others (and are not in order of importance, but in scriptural order - Genesis to Revelation), but in their entirety, they spell out the security I hold dear.

Yes, I know you said this has previously been done here. But, hey, cut me some slack, I'm the new guy! I haven't gotten in on the fun yet!

Thank you, drfuss, for the kind spirit in which you post your differing views. We still love you even if you're wrong!:laugh:

Love in Christ,
Wes

Hee, hee, tried to post, but it was too long. Guess I'll have to split it up...

 

[westex93]

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Psalms 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. (Notice, he didn’t say “restore my salvation”, only restore the joy. We know for sure we can lose the joy, right?)

Psalms 85:4 Turn us, O God of our salvation, and cause thine anger toward us to cease. (Still the God of our salvation even when in rebellion.)

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. (Israel’s salvation is everlasting, even though they’ve been broken off for a time. Are we not grafted?)

Isaiah 55:13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off. (Read entire chapter, speaking of salvation.)

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Is there a worse sin than this? Yet even these people, if they are saved, do not lose their salvation! They are only called the least in the kingdom)

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Key here, “I never knew you”. Not “I no longer knew you”, I once knew you”, etc)

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Luke 10:41-42 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. (Relationship with Christ.)

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (Boy, that should be enough!)

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. (Whew, another good one.)

John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not (to be washed, my insertion) save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. (Here is a picture of salvation. One could also say “He that is saved needeth not (to be saved) but to wash his feet…” The washing of the feet is a picture of the believer approaching the throne for forgiveness of sins. (1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”))

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Ref Rom 8:15 regarding adoption. Here lies basis for saying, just as God has not cast off Israel but is chastising them for repentence, God will not forsake the believer but will also chasten them.)

Romans 7:15-25 (Paul's struggle with sin) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Paul's answer) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (OK, so was Paul saved or lost?)

 

[westex93]

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (Law of Adoption: Adoption was taken very seriously. It was a very public matter and was announced in public decree. Furthermore, natural children could be "disowned". By law, an adopted child could not. It was a covenant that could not be broken. Has your salvation been "made public"? If you are fully adopted, no one can take that away!)

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (AMEN!!)

Romans 9:4-6 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

1 Corinthians 1 Paul tells the corrupt Corinthian church in v. 2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints..." Then in v 4-9, "I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord." All this right before ripping them apart for their carnality, yet they were still saved!

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (This is the purpose for chastisement)

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Galatians 4:5-7 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Here is proof that the child of God cannot completely fall away. According to this passage, if we could lose our salvation, we could never get it back! So how are protected? 2 Timothy 2:13 says "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." We are preserved because God does not see us, but Christ in us who "cannot dent Himself". We know we can backslide or "lose our first love" by scripture and by experience, but we cannot completely fall away!)

 

[westex93]

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:25-28 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 10:1-18 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (Amen!!)

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. (Ref Deut 31:6. Here, again, is a promise to Israel that the New Testament writer has carried over to the church.)

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (One not walking in God’s will can actually forget their salvation, but not lose it!)

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

 

[westex93]

OK, so at least I feel better if no one else does!

Whew, I'm tired...

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Westex93,

Good morning. I just came home from 3rd shift job. You posted with many verses to prove that we cannot lose salvation. I would like to tell you something about these verses you show to us. I am 100% agree with all these verses. Later in the late afternoon or in the evening. I will reply back to you with all verses as what you show us, also previous verses as what you mentioned yesterday before I made previos post last night. I will continue discuss more on these verses to you.

Tomorrow night I will be off from 3rd shift. I will make post to discuss deep on these verses and what these are talking about.

One thing about King David as what you show of that verse Psalms 51:12 is speak of lost of the joy of salvation. Many securitrists like Late Dr. John R. Rice said, this verse is not speak of lse salvation, but lose of JOY.

Let me explain about this. When King Davd was filled with the Holy Spirit, he was so close with the Lord. He had a wonderful relationship with God. He wrote hymns of songs, praised to the Lord. He was a great prayer. ONe day, when David was alone at his home. He stood outside on the top of his house, he spotted a nude lady doing bath. He asked his servant, who's that person. He told David, that lady is soldier's wife. Then, he told his servant to call that woman come to his house. He does commit adultery with a lady. And he decided to ordererd his own soldier to murder lady's husand, so, he hopes no one know that he did commit adultery with soldier's wife.

God was displeased with David. During that period, David was backslidding away from the Lord by sinned. David married dead soldier's wife, and got pregancy, begat a son. One day, God sent Nathan, the prophet came to David. And he rebuked David for his sins. God caused his son became very sick and dying. David woke up and repented of his sins. He did fasted for 5 days about his son and prayed to God for confess of sins. At fifth day of his fasting. HIs servnat told him, that his son is dead. Then, he stopped fast. He said, he cannot come to see his son, but will see him up there(heaven).

That how David wrote Psalms 51:9-12: "Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart. O God: and renew a right spirit wihtin me. CAST ME NOT AWAY FROM THY PRESENCE; AND TAKE NOT THY HOLY SPIRIT FROM ME Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit."

No one told David that the Holy Spirit was actual did depart from him. David, himself KNEW, the Holy Spirit was actual did depart from him when he sinned against God.

Pause for a moment.

I would like to discuss with you about Eph. 1:13-14 about 'sealed'. Securists teaching, when a person onced believed and accepted Christ, then the Holy Spirit came into a person's heart, and it sealed person. Proved that a person is already being secured, and saved. a person is remain always sealed & saved all the way till the day of redemption(rapture). They use Eph. 1:13-14 for the evidence of security salvation doctrine.

I have no problem with Eph. 1:13-14.

The most important verse that we must take heed what Paul warned us- Ephesians 4:30: "And GRIEVE NOT the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed UNTO the day of redemption." Paul warns us, that we do not do wicked or sin against the Holy Spirit. Because, He dwells in us, that our body is BELONG to God's - temple.

There are two good examples of true story, that the Holy Spirit did actual left two men- KIng David & King Saul.

At the first place, God told Samuel, the prophet to anointed Saul to became King of Israel. Saul was with God, he did have relationship with God. But, somehow, he became rebel against God. He decided to do his own animal sacrifice instead of waiting for Samuel come to show up.

1 Samuel 16:14 says: "But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him." Lord was fed up with Saul for disobedient God's commands. God was did actual depart from Saul for good.

When after Samuel died, several months or years later. Saul decided came to see the witch, he asked her for calling Samuel to show up. She have no idea how to doing it. But, somehow Samuel show up and talking to Saul- 1 Samuel 28:15-16 "And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. Then Sanuel, Where then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is DEPARTED FROM THEE, and is become thine enemy?"

Samuel told Saul, that his kingdom will be divided, his son will be killed in the war, also Saul will be killed too.

During war against Philistines, his army was fall aparted, he was wounded from archers attacked him. Then, Saul told his armour bearer, draw the sword strike against him, but the bearer feared refuse to do it, then Saul tooka sword then he fell upon it. That was suicide! - 1 Sam. 31:3-5.

Obivous, God did departed from Saul long before he died, because of his rebel and disobedient.

No question, Saul is now in hell.

Notice in Hebrews chapter 11, about the list of 'Hall of the Faith", notice Saul was find there. No question, he lose his faith on the Lord. He is now in hell.

Same with King David. When he was with God, he was filled with the Holy Spirit. One day, David sinned against God for commit adultery and murder. God did actual DEPARTED David. Somehow about a year later, God sent Nathan, the prophet to rebuke to David of his sins. He shocked and repented to God.

My BIG QUESTION is... WHAT IF.... God doesn't send Nathan to David. What would have happen to David's spirit/soul? For sure, David would have remain in sins without repentance, and on the way to hell.

I notice some dispensationlists saying there is different plans of salvation between Old Testament period & New Testament Period. They saying, during in the Old Testament period, there was conditional of the Holy Spirit among saints. During in the New Testament period, now it us unconditional of the Holy Spirit remains in saints all the time at the moment of their salvation.

I disagree.

Eph. 4:30 is the most important verse, that Paul warns us, we DO NOT GRIEVE the Holy Spirit, because we are sealed with the Holy Spiirit TILL the day of redemeption.

OR.... WHAT IF we grieve the Holy Spirit already, then we are no longer remain sealed with the Holy Spirit by the time Lord comes for rapture, then our soul/spirit would be doomed.

Obivously, Eph. 4:30 is a conditional with warning, no way that we can ignore or neglect it.

Later this evening, I will continue discuss more on verses about salvation, also, will continue discuss more on it tomorrow.

Have a nice day! God bless you!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?.......

On the other hand:

Matt. 13:20. "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21. yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

Matt. 24:14. "For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.
15. "To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
16. "Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
17. "In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
18. "But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
19. "Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them.
20. "The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.'
21. "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
22. "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.'
23. "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
24. "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
25. 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
26. "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
27. 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
28. 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
29. "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
30. "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 4:16. "In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy;
17. and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

Luke 8:13. "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

John 15:5. "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7. "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8. "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
9. "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10. "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
11. "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

1 Cor. 9:27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

1 Cor. 10:11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

Gal. 5:1. It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Col. 1:21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

2 Thes. 2:3. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4. who opposes and exalts himself above every so- called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6. And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9. that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12. in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

In addition:

1 Tim. 4:1. But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2. by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
3. men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

2 Tim 4:1. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2. preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4. and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

Heb. 3:12. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Heb. 10:26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

2 Pet. 2:1. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3. and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
5. and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6. and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
7. and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
8. (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
9. then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
10. and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
11. whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord.
12. But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13. suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
14. having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
15. forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16. but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17. These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18. For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19. promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

2 Pet. 3:14. Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15. and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16. as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
18. but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Jude 1:4. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5. Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
6. And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7. just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8. Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
9. But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10. But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
11. Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
12. These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
13. wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
14. It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15. to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
16. These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.
Keep Yourselves in the Love of God
17. But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,
18. that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."
19. These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly- minded, devoid of the Spirit.
20. But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21. keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

 

[LeBuick]

What is this, you guys trying to see whan make the biggest post?

 

[drfuss]

Westes93 writes
"So with that in mind, I will only post some scriptures in response to your statement on "no conflicting scriptures" rather than argue the point. All I ask is that you honestly look over each and do your own study to see if any conflict your position. Granted, some of these are stronger than others (and are not in order of importance, but in scriptural order - Genesis to Revelation), but in their entirety, they spell out the security I hold dear."

I looked over your scriptures as you ask and found none that conflict with my position.

You posted many scriptures that encourage believers to continue to trust in Jesus as savior. But not one of them specifically said a christian cannot or will not decide to stop trusting Jesus as savior.

If you could approach your scriptures from my position rather than your long held and taught OSAS position, you would understand what I am saying. Having attended A church for 14 years where OSAS has been taught, I have heard the OSAS perspective on most of your scriptures.

Not wanting to get into a prolonged discussion, I picked two of the scriptures that I think could be used to best support your position.

One scripture you gave for your position is Matt. 7:23 (I never knew you). However, the context is given in Matt. 7:15-22. Here Jesus is talking about false prophets who are not what they say they are. They were described as: fercious wolves, thornbushes, thistles, and bad trees (vs. 15-20). Even though thay act like christians and appear to do many wonderful works, they were not christians in the first place so Jesus says He never knew them.

Another scripture you gave is John 10:25-30. Note verse 27: "My sheep listen to my voice: I know them, and they follow me." Note that his sheep follow Him. This implies that if a christian decides to stop following him, that person is no longer his sheep.

As long as we continue to follow Jesus, we are his sheep and no one can snatch us out of the Father's hand (my position).

It has always amazed me how the OSAS believers can use John 10:25-30 and fail to see the significance of verse 27.

Again, this discussion has been interesting. I did what you asked. But I am not going to get involved in a verse against verse discussion.

Peace,

drfuss

 

[westex93]

Agreed, drfuss, we'll let it go.

In response to my "long held and taught OSAS position", actually I was raised in a home where OSAS was laughed at and ridiculed. It was only when I was an adult and began studying the scriptures for myself that the Holy Spirit led me to this conclusion.

Again, thanks for the discussion. Hopefully this ol' hard iron got a little edge knocked off in the process.

BTW, you made an excellent statement regarding John 10:27. The key here absolutely is that they were never His sheep. His sheep listen to His voice, He knows us, and we and follow Him. This all the more leads me to my stance that those who "fall away" do so because they were never His. They fall away from a church system, but were never part of the church.

Again, good stuff all. God bless every one of you.

In Christ,
Wes

 

[drfuss]

westex93 writes:
"In response to my "long held and taught OSAS position", actually I was raised in a home where OSAS was laughed at and ridiculed. It was only when I was an adult and began studying the scriptures for myself that the Holy Spirit led me to this conclusion. "

I am courious. In the home you were raised in, did they understand the different versions of OSAS?

Before I studied OSAS, I thought all OSAS meant once saved, always saved regardless of how you lived or what you believed after the fact. Jokingly we used to call it "rubber knee salvation", i.e. hit your knees, say the prayer, and then you were eternally saved regardless of what you believed or how you lived afterwards. It was only after I became more exposed to eternal security that I realized rubber knee salvation was not believed and that there are different versions of eternal security.

Also, did the home you were raised in believe that faith plus works is required for salvation? Of course I believe works have nothing to do with salvation.

I have grouped eternal security into three versions as follows:

Unconditional eternal security - Christians are eternally secure even if, after living for Christ awhile, they decide to stop trusting Jesus as savior. About 10 years ago Charles Stanley was pushing this position on his website although I haven't seen it there lately.

Continuing eternal security - As defined by the SBC, a true chrixtian will continue to trust Christ the rest of his life. I think that is your position.

Conditional eternal security - A christian is eternally secure on the condition that they continue to trust Jesus as Savior, i.e. my position.


Of course we disagree on what "Follow my call" means in John 10:27. But let's not go there.


Thank you,

drfuss

 

[westex93]

I am courious. In the home you were raised in, did they understand the different versions of OSAS?

I can't actually say I was raised in a Christian home, but one when the Bible was broke out only to "lay down the law". Any equation of salvation (which was actually never mentioned in my home) would have been extremely works based.

My belief, I guess, is "Unconditional Continuing Eternal Security"? As I has stated earlier, most of the problem the average church member is not OSAS, but the Once Saved part! I am convinced the "average church member" is lost. Especially here in the good ol' South, where every good ol' boy loves his Momma, and Granny dragged him to church growin' up so he thinks all is OK with him and God.

So, yes, I believe a true Christian - indwelt by the Holy Spirit - is a forever changed individual. Unconditionally. He may (will) backslide, stumble, struggle, lose his first love from time to time, but God will never let him go. Instead, in His sovreign love, He will continually chasten His own to bring them to repentence. Even in our most rebellious state.

All scripture arguments aside, this relates perfectly to my life. I was saved as a child (my parents didn't go to church at all, an older adult cousin began taking me when I was 8 - 9 years old). I remember well the change that happened in my life when God saved me! I was no longer the same mean, bullying child I was before and I had an unquenchable appetite for God's Word.

As a teenager, I began looking to other things - partying and chasing women. But there is no doubt that God never let me go. I was His. Period. Through my years of running from God, I had an aching in my heart that would never go away. I knew where I should be and looked at myself with eyes wide open thinking what a fool I was. When I repented and sold out completely for Jesus Christ, He picked me right back up. See, my standing as His child was never broken, but the fellowship was for a time. Just like when you have to punish your own children. They never stop being your children, but the fellowship isn't there. But then when it's restored, it is oh, so sweet.

The thing with your "rubber knee salvation" folks is just that. Hitting your knees, saying a prayer, even shedding a few tears does not save you. Unless there is a true repentence - a turning away from sin and giving your life over completely to Jesus to rule and reign - all they had was an emotional experience. Not salvation.

Wes

 

[Rooselk]

This debate, which is really nothing more than a continuation of in calvinist-arminian dispute, has been going on within the church now for several centuries and I doubt that it can or ever will be resolved until the coming of the Lord. And while I think that both sides of the dispute make good arguments, I think the problem is that both parties - the followers of Calvin and the followers of Arminius - error in trying to put some of the unknowable truths of God into a logically consistant system. Just as we humans cannot fully understand the Trinity, we still believe it because God has revealed in His Word that it is so. To my mind, the same is true with regard to this debate. As someone else has written, I hold to the position,

that accepts the explicit Biblical passages on the topic at face value, while accepting that they do not add up to a logical system. Why some are saved and others not is thus not a question whose answer God has opened up to us.

Like Martin Luther, one can accept the doctrines of Total Depravity and Unconditional Election without coming to the conclusion that OSAS is likewise true.

http://www.dedelen.com/2005/02/on-brink-of-quantum-singularity-with.html

 

[genesis12]

Wow. I want Helen and Westex on my debate team! Wes, you are a breath of fresh air! You've sent us enough scripture and spiritual insight to teach a two-week class on OSAS. How wonderful, how precious, how comforting to KNOW that it is all of Jesus and none of us! Praise God from Whom all Blessings flow!! :applause: :applause: :applause:

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Care to answer my question of Matthew 25:30, which one of 'outer darkness' is speak of "temporaily" or everlasting" punishment???

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Martin]

Unanswered Questions

Care to answer my question of Matthew 25:30, which one of 'outer darkness' is speak of "temporaily" or everlasting" punishment???

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

==Speaking of unanswered questions...I am still waiting on your reply to my post (#28 in this thread, dated 6/11). You said in #40 (dated 6/12) that you were planning on answering.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Martin,

Please sticky with this question, do not hopping like as rabbit for being avoid to answer my question on Matthew 25:30. I am waiting for you to answer my question. :sleeping_2:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[ituttut]

Dr. Fuss,

Thanks for your reply. My problem was not with the fact that someone believes something different. I agree with you as well. The fact is that I may be wrong about ES and the opposing side may be as well.

Like I have said before I am willing to listen just not to some presentations. The book may be a good read but when someone sends it to try and convert me (when I am already saved) then there is a problem. I am not the only one that received this. Alot of Baptist pastors in the area did as well.

By the way, to be fair I think he believes that only those that teach ES are going to hell..... I forgot to mention that earlier...

But we can be sure, without doubt as to our position - Acts 16:31, "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." It is Now that we have received our atonement in Him (Romans 5:11), which lets us know we do not have to endure until the end to secure salvation. This was impossible while Jesus was on earth, for He had not yet shed His blood. Those of conditional salvation were the "covenant" people, those of the nation of Israel. They were saved under a different gospel.

The error is theirs (that Author and alike believers), for they believe that "other gospel" that was to be kept apart from the Christian - " I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ", Galatians 1:6-7.

We see in Galatians 2, Paul, Barnabas, and Titus (also Acts 15) had to go to Jerusalem to have a talk with Peter, James, John and the others in an endeavor to keep the Jewish Pentecost church "troublers" away from their "Gentile" believers. They all shook hands, but that church could not keep some of their believers from "contaminating" the Christians with Jewish Law of ordinances, and covenant, and the "kingdom" promised to the Jew. The "great commission" crowd was "perverting the gospel of Christ", which is the "grace commission."The Judaziers were trying to make the Christian come under the covenant of the Jew, making the Gentile a proselyte of that Jewish Jerusalem Apostolic church.

Those "conditionally" saved, and we "unconditionally" saved, are all saved but under different gospel's.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Martin,

You ask me to answer your question of post #28. So, I look at your post 28#.

You discussed about John 6:37-39.

I have NO problem with John 6:37-39. I understand it very clear so well. I agree with Christ's word.

You saying, "no wise cast out" , it shows and proved that it is security salvation, that a Christian onced accepted Christ, cannot lose salvation.

Understand, two next important verses in the context after verse 37. Verse 37 - Christ says, "All(elect) that the Father giveth me SHALL COME TO ME; and him that comETH to me I will in no wise cast out."

Christ continues: -verse 38-40 "For I came down from heaven, NOT TO DO MINE OWN WILL, BUT THE WILL OF HIM(GOD) THAT SENT ME. And THIS(Calvary) is the Father's will which hath sent me, that all which he hath sent given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And THIS(Calvary) is the will of him that sent me, that every one WHICH SEETH THE SON, AND BELIEVETH on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

three important words as what Christ said of an individul: 1. 'Shall come to me' 2. 'which seeth the Son' 3. and believeth on him'. Individual's responsible of salvation is- to make decision come to Christ and put faith on Christ as looking up on Christ and continue believing on Christ shall HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE long as a person continues follow Christ while believing in him same time, no wise cast out.

Same with John 15:4. If a person stopped follow Christ, shall be cast out - John 15:6.

Christ says to us, if we abide in Him, and carry our fruit(spiritual life) SO shall we be His DISCIPLES- John 15:7-8.

Christ promises us, long as we continue looking up and believing on Christ shall have everlasting life, and He shall raise us at Christ's coming- resurrection.

Matthew 7:21-23 speaks of many religions, even include baptists too, shall saying to Lord sits on the throne, that they did good works for the Lord, at the judgment day. But, the Lord shall saying to them, that, He doesn't know them, and telling them to depart from him, go into everlasting fire, because of their work INIQUITY. Christ's point is, He don't care how good works we do for the Lord. But, our sins still hold in us, without confess our sins to the Lord, also do not actual repentance.

That why, Christ commands us, everyone ought to be repent to enter the kingdom of God.

You says of Luke 15:7,10,32:

==The point of the parable is salvation, not security==

That is correct.

Christ explained of Luke 15:11-32 as parable. His purpose was, He wants his disciples and Christians to understand the illustration about the lost son. Christ clearly telling us, that the son WAS with his father at the first place. Means that, a person was with Christ AT THE FIRST PLACE.

Often, I hear many securists saying that a person is not saved AT THE FIRST PLACE.

That is not correct.

When the son decides want to leave his father, and go in his own way, then Christ simple saying this son is LOST- period. He speaks of spiritual.

When a son is already deep in the valley of sins, he realizes that he is lost. He knows that he is NOT worthy to be called, 'son'. Christ means that a person is NOT belong to his father anymore while being lost at the same time. SO, a son decides get up and repent of his sins, TURN BACK(repent) back to his father again. Then, father says of his son, that he was lostand dead but now FOUND and ALIVE. It speaks of spiritual.

Luke 15:11-32 is so very, very clear prove us that, once a person who WAS WITH Christ, turn away already lost and DEAD. Period.

Also, Luke 15:11-32 is very clear teaching it is conditional security salvation.

Our responsible is, to be STAY with the Lord all the way to be remain alive and be faithful to the Lord till the end(at our death or Lord comes - Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13).


You mentioned of Romans 4:4-5. I am 100% agree with Romans 4:4-5. Apostle Paul was right.

Interesting, Martin Luther- ex-monk, he complained and said there are conflict of teaching between Paul's and James'. He considered the book of James should not be canonized unto God's Word(Bible). Because he complained that James saying that Abraham was counted by his faith with works together.

Notice, Romans 4:5 in KJV, it says, "But to him(Abraham) that worketh not, but BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for righteous.

Word, 'believeth' means continue believing. While Abraham was living. He have been followed God by through his faith for many years. He won't quit being follow God all the way till his death.

Hebrews chapter 12 is a perfect chapter talking about the hall of the faith. Notice, Abraham was listed in that chapter. Shows that he already won the race because of HIS FAITH. Faith is more than just saying 'I believe', Faith shows of action with carry fruits to prove that a person is SERIOUS with the Lord and to be abide in the Lord all the way to the end(Matt. 10:22 & Matt. 25:13).

That why Romans 4:4-5 recorded that Abraham was COUNTED into righteousness, because of what He done for the Lord after the result of after his life.

I have no problem with Eph. 2:8-9. Understand our good works cannot bring us into the heaven. We are saved by the grace through what? FAITH!

Faith is the most emphasis word throughout in the Bible base upon salvation.

Without faith, IMPOSSIBLE to please God.

I have no problem with Romans 9:11. Let's read verse 11 says: "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth".

This verse is speak of God is an omniscience. Means, God knows everything and future before we all were born. God already know know who will be saved, not only already 'saved', also, God already know who will follow Him before the creation.

I do believe in 'election' means being chosen.

But look in 2 Peter 1:10 says, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give dilgence TO MAKE your calling and election SURE: IF YE DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL." Peter tells us, that we all are responsible to MAKE SURE of our calling and election, for IF we DO these things, shall never fall.

Christ already know, MANY were called, but FEW ARE CHOSEN. Why? Because all saints who were called by God(through the gospel), did follow Christ, but for a while tehn fall away, are NOT truly final chosen at the end.

See? Christ already know MANY shall be falling away before the creation. Christ is an omniscience. He knows future. That why, our responsible is, TO MAKE SURE of our calling and election that we ought to DO THESE THINGS, shall never fall.

Now, I am asking you, please answer my question of Matt. 25:30, which one of 'outer darkness' is temporaily or everlasting punishment?? I am waiting on you. :sleeping_2:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!