Conditional Security

You're bluffing. We all can see it.

You're claiming that somebody's translation into Hebrew will enlighten us concerning Paul's use of "if."

You don't believe that, do you?

From what I can see, you've never completed one semester of training in biblical Hebrew. You also seem to be unaware of the scholarly disagreement over first class conditional sentences in NT Greek.

But you do know your theology and your commentaries, and that's good enough for me.

You say that it's obvious from the context that Paul is not talking about salvation when he wrote "if we deny him, he also will deny us," right?

In context, that's precisely what he's talking about. Read the preceding verses. Choose any language in which you are literate.

You want v. 13 to say something about salvation? You cite the verse, but give no interpretation. But v. 12 is on a topic other than salvation?

That's the magic of theology. Context cannot overcome it and grammar cannot overcome it. The verse means what one's theology says it must mean, and any argument in favor of that theology is, if all else fails, "spiritual discernment."

My original claim has been sufficiently explored, so I will accept your offer to have a nice day.

 

I agree that changing the bible's meaning by redefining words is the wrong way to do this. The only way to reconcile these different verses without re-writing the bible is to recognize that they are not always talking about what we have been taught they are talking about.

Col 1:3-5
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

The Colossians have faith that is manifested through their love for the brethren, and Paul commends them for this, and speaks of a hope that is laid up for them in heaven. Is this the hope that they might be saved? I should think it is evident that they are saved, if anyone is saved (this is for you fruit inspectors, you know who you are ). If they are saved in eternity, they don't hope to be saved in eternity. We see a hope again in Romans 5.

Rom 5:1-2
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Do we suppose that the hope of the glory of God is that they hope they have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ? No, they have peace with God, AND they have the hope of the glory of God. If having peace with God is worth anything, surely this is cause for rejoicing, but paul says we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. So there is something even greater than peace with God that we should hope for.

Col 1:20-23
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

So since we have peace with God and have been reconciled by his blood, we also have a promise that if we continue in the faith we may be presented holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight. Why do we want to be found holy and unblameable and unreproveable? Because this is a condition of obtaining the hope.

Col 1:25-29
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This hope of glory, Paul says he also is labouring to obtain it. This is what we are to be working for. Not working to be justified through the blood, to have peace with God. But because we have these things, justification, peace with God, we are able now to realize this hope of glory as well, if we will continue in faith.

 

Quick quesitons ( I hope). Would you agree that one of the purposes of the law as given to the Jews was to show that they could not live a life good enough to merit heaven by adhereing to the law or a set of rules?

If you agree with this understanding when one comes to Hebrews 5:9 he understands that Christ fulfilled the law in Himself and this allowed him to usher in eternal salvation to those who obey.

If the law could not get the Jews into heaven then how does obedience to the law in the New Testament do what it could not do in the Old Testament?

How can Eternal security be tied to obedience in the law?

 

James Newman: good job! But remember that the KJV "hope" means "expect" or "expectation." And might not Paul have been laboring to "present every man perfect" rather than for "the hope of glory"? (I haven't checked, just wondering.)

th(etc.): the doctrine of conditional security says that salvation is conditioned upon faith. It does not say that salvation is conditioned upon works or obedience to the law. (This definition should reduce the doctrine's offensiveness to all except those Calvinists who classify faith as a work--their case is pretty air tight once that premise is granted.)

 

This is some of the best advice I've read thus far during my time here on the BB.

 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by genesis12:

Endless debate in these forums is akin to what the Colossians were warned about: instead of following their high calling in Christ Jesus, posters spend endless hours in forum gossip, laying traps, searching out contradictions.... a nightmare of "talking flesh," heresy, even blasphemy on rare occasions.

One of the most joyful experiences is to purchase a study Bible, read the intro to a particular book, read all its footnotes, and check the cross-references, commentaries, and a good Bible dictionary. Do that with the Book of John. You'll graduate with a biblist Ph.D after six weeks or so, if you devote at least 3 hours daily!* In fact, do that with all of Colossians. Examine the Greek language, then the Hebrew counterpart, as well.

Study the scriptures instead of endless debate in these forums.
--------------------------------------------------

That brings me to a question I was about to post .
Has anyone ever changed their mind about a belief or a doctrine that they held by reading a post on any board.????????

 

Well, certainly that was part of Paul's labors, to be able to present them perfect. I think the wording would be strained, but you could read it that way. But this was not his ultimate motivation. Sincere love of the brethren is what we are called to, but not only for love's sake but for pleasing the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:9-10
9 Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Our eternal salvation is not conditioned upon our laboring to be accepted of Him. He demonstrated that in that while we were yet sinners He died for us. We (should) labor to be accepted of Him at the judgment seat, knowing that we will be rewarded for our works whether good or bad. Most Christians have lost the fear of God, despite Paul's admonition of knowing the terror of the Lord. The idea that there is no such thing as a negative reward is unscriptural. Just because we have been saved from the eternal penalty of sin doesn't mean there are no consequences for sin, even in the next world.

 

In fact, the NIV and NASB translate it my way, while the others are noncommittal.

At any rate, you've successfully met my challenge to reconcile the passage with OSAS. I could point out some objections to your defense, but I'm serious when I say that I don't want to debate the issue--so I won't.

I'll also concede that I was wrong when I originally said that any discussion of the topic degenerates into a melee. The usual suspects have sat eerily silent. They know their reasons; I can only guess. But I was foiled.

For now, I must leave the keyboard and go do some good works. I had a bad thought this morning and I'm just not sure what my balance is presently.

Better mind, my brotha, how y'walk on the cross
Yo foot might slip and y'soul get lost
Ol' Satan wear a club foot shoe
If y'don't mind out, he be steppin' on you

 

thjplgvp wrote:

For gentiles and Jewish converts, it can't. Their / our salvation and therefore our eternity is by grace thru faith, not of works.

rex77 wrote:

I suppose silence is the appropriate response to your query, rex. However, rather than a simple 'no,' I'll say that no belief or doctrine that I hold has been changed by reading any post in this or any other, similar forum, across the internet. Following up on my own "joyful experiences" comment, I did an interesting Bible study Saturday evening which spoke directly to an issue or two raised in these forums, leaving me enthusiastic to share it here, with an eye to changing some erroneous belief systems, some faulty doctrine, but as long as our posts meet with fleshly, worldly interpretation and response, I realize that it would serve no useful purpose. All scripture is spiritually discerned; I therefore repeat my comment about the importance of Bible study. I have an advantage, being of advanced age, with lots of "spare" time on my hands. It is easier for me to devote several hours weekly to prayerfully understanding scripture. God forgive me (1 John 1:9) when I fail to do that. In fact, I'm being led to go do that right now! Adios!