ID, yes, you are correct that the internalized quotes are my responses: I didn't mean to mislead you or anyone.... its just that I've found this method to be easier and more efficient to reply than.... say.... using color coding, different sizes etc... when I can merely hit the 'quote' icon... insert my reply... and go from there to the next phrase. However, I forgot to initial each ....which I try to do sometimes...
Originally Posted by windcatcher
The REAL QUESTION, which was never resolved by the CW..... is why and when are the people in one area of jurisdiction justified to enter, invade, coerce, and destroy, another at the point of a gun?
Yes, this was somewhat of a 'philosophical' interlude of thought: Though I presented it as relating to the CW, it is also on my mind related to the 'justice' of other wars... recent and past... and how so many of them have been driven more by the pretense of a 'moral' or 'higher' good..... when the outcome does not prove this. (Dare I interrupt this discussion by mentioning WWII... where WE WON or WWII would not have been won without us..... but the European Countries did not go back to their original heads but were divided into a communist block.... or where we allowed thousands of Russian soldiers who were prisoners of war by virtue of their surrenders.... to be returned to a certain death by their own government.... or failed to secure the repatriation of our own POWs... over 6000 and abandoned them to the USSR. Or how we encouraged the defeat of the Chinese nationalist to the Communist by withholding supplies which were already paid for and promised and embargoes....... or where we've interfered in SA to have dictatorial and communist regimes replace those which were before... or in Iran... where our interventions aided the discrediting of the Shaw and brought in a regime which is our enemy... or Saudi Arabia... who 'as a friend' we've allied with but also provided text books for their schools which promote their extremist Islamic religion.... and adds to the tension and the security of their own government with its people... maintaining a dependency upon our presence in the middle east for their own security.)
I think, if I read your last post correctly, that you and I both agree on one issue and that is that the subject of the CW, the causes leading to and the cause held responsible for entering it and maintaining it..... and the moralizing of the war as solely based on the South's position on slavery vs the North's presumed innocence regarding slavery and justice for the black man.... are not fairly presented in the text books from which most public education depends and individual opinion and discussion is often derived.
Not everyone is as fortunate to have the perspective which helps them view more than the singular side which was taught them in school. Some have acquired broader understandings through their own research. I'm pleased that you can see this..... and, I think, we are both agreed that there is no justice in slavery...regardless of what other pov we have.
For me... the studies were biased even in Virgina texts in 1958, and more so in American History text in college ten years later. The conflict which I acquired over this issue was the discrepancies between teachings and experience: the later I noticed both in interactions between black and white and family folk lore passed down to me from grandparents who were already aged but of clear intellect who lived into their 90's until I was grown,.... one set in NW Florida, and the other in tobacco country of NC piedmont.
I still remember elderly descendants of slaves bringing their children and grandchildren to visit my grandparents, who were quite restricted by health from getting around.... visiting with them and eating at their table.... and us children playing together.... and being told to keep quiet during their conversations as with any other visitor.... and to use titles of Mr. and Mrs. or.... when told a first name to at least add 'aunt' or 'uncle' to it in difference of respect for their age and wisdom.
Both sets of grandparents and the one pair of great-grand parents (FL) lived in the country, so blacks and whites were community and neighbors, and I can't say that we saw the justice in the rules of segregation which seemed to make a difference in the urban and metro areas of the country.
In Virginia, we lived in a suburban area of my childhood, surrounded by neighbors who had moved, some with bitterness, from the heart of Norfolk into the county because of integration into their neighborhood.... this was the mid-50's. I caught on to some of their prejudice.... but I didn't understand it. Then we moved to Florida.
The media portrayed the civil rights movements of the 60's in inflammatory terms, and it was hard to understand that the social experience in the country between black and white could be so different from what was reported on t.v. and in the papers, but it was: Just like my experience in Norfolk exposed me to white flight and prejudice based on color...... I can barely imagine how much more the black felt the sensitivity of his color in the response of others when he went from the rural area of country with white and black neighbors and friends to the urban or city where he could only eat in certain restaurants, sit in certain places, drink from certain fountains, or go to bathrooms marked 'colored' .... if any existed at all, and where he was resented when competing for jobs or housing.
I do remember a couple of trips we made as family to Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., and New Jersey.... to visit my dad's old ship mates from WWII...... in the late 60's. As children, my brothers (2) and myself and my sisters (3) had formed impressions from media and school conversations regarding how 'hard' or 'cold' the people 'up north' were supposed to be and how crime abounded.... and one should mind their own business. We didn't know our limits other than to listen to and obey our parents. So each of us children did what we normally did wherever we went.... greeted even strangers, smiled and made eye contact, said 'hello' and 'how are you' and 'good morning' 'please and thank you' and 'yes mam' ' and 'yes sir' and 'excuse me' same as always.... on the side walks, in the restaurants, in the sub-ways. Black or white.... we were greeted back with no semblance of difference...... but several times remarks were made direct to our openness..... 'you're not from around here are you?' or 'you must be from the south?'..... interesting.
Yes..... we were from 'the south' but our experience was very narrow..... even in 'the deep south' as we were also from the country where people, economy, opportunity, and law
seemed to be more equal. (Here I say 'seemed' because even the observance of childhood undergoes a transformation when it takes a lifetime to build up the experiences and 20-20 hindsight needed to pierce through the facade of those elements.... such as segregated education and differences in milieu, or that some of ones neighbors.... be they black or white .....did harbor personal resentments of their own.) I vaguely remember some brief discussion in a Methodist Church about 'unequal yoking' and an example was given of race..... and then I got some material from Bob Jones University when considering college... and there were restrictions on interracial marriages or dating. While I naturally prefer to date those of my own race.... I remember bringing to my mom's attention those verses in the Bible regarding 'unequal yoking' and quizzing her about it as my own understanding was that this was in regard to the spiritual character. I had painstakingly gone through the Genesis accounts and tried to diagram the genealogy from Noah.... to see if there was any truth to the curse of Ham.... and concluding that, while there might be 'a truth' it was not being properly applied as making a difference as to color: My mom agreed: As with another poster on this board... my mom told me it was more important that I marry a Christian man... than the color of his skin, and she'd rather see a daughter married to a black or person of another race who is a Christian than to a man who would not treat her right or provide for her due to some weakness such as drunkenness or gambling.
I know that generally the BB discourages discussions of race..... especially because it can be so divisive and inflammatory..... but, being thankful for their tolerance...... I do tend to agree that the experience of myself (if I'm 'intellectually honest') and the experiences of most people in our country does involve a racial identity which society itself and laws which make a distinction.... and tools like the census...... continues to encourage and support. Like it or not...... as long as society itself is willing to continue either the injustice.... real (part of existing experience) or perceived (by indoctrination, or as an excuse), and keep the divisions alive, race will continue to be a factor which groups people by differences which they cannot change... instead of merely a cultural heritage of genetics by which one identifies their ancestral roots and takes pride in both the blessings and the obstacles overcome by their parentage. Perhaps one day we can appreciate fully the differences in complexion much as we view eye color, and hair color, height and weight. It is God who gives life. That life has value to each and every person: What we wish to keep for ourselves.... we must also value in others..... and protect that gift which God has given in whomever we meet.
