Confess with the mouth (Ro 10:9)

[skypair]

So, should we say someone could be saved without any outward demonstration, by only an intellectual, internal, belief?

Les -- I just go by scripture on this. Rom 10:9-10 ("confess with thy mouth"), I Cor 15:1-4 ("which ye received and wherein ye [visibly] stand"). Believer's baptism is another obedient means of testifying to your heart's faith.

The "intellectual"/"internal" -- that is, spiritual -- comes first, I believe. And it is clearly not the physical obedience that saves. To me, the "believe ... confess" formula in Rom 10:9-10 says one is "righteous" or justified (given the righteousness of God) -- it actually changes your soul -- by believing. Then confession unto salvation speaks of saving your life as one might say dedicating one's life to Christ.

Rom 5:10 speaks of this as being reconciled by His death (justified IMO) and "much more" saved by His life (that is sanctified by living His life). So this latter is where the "confession" part comes in. Do you see that? He saves us eternally in spirit and saves us physically to the extent that we are outward Christians.

skypair

 

[lbaker]

By "mere" symbol I mean that we have taken something that had much more meaning in NT times, even being associated with conversion, and turned it into something that has only a symbolic function, and supposedly accomplishes nothing for the believer in real, spiritual terms.

Les

 

[Allan]

By "mere" symbol I mean that we have taken something that had much more meaning in NT times, even being associated with conversion, and turned it into something that has only a symbolic function, and supposedly accomplishes nothing for the believer in real, spiritual terms.

Les

Can you prove scripturally that water baptism saves?
Or even does anything spiritual in the sense of conversion?

 

[lbaker]

I never said baptism saves, at least not in the ex opere operato RCC sense. It is Jesus who saves, who did all the work. Immersion is an act of faith, like prayer or confession, a response to what Jesus did.

But the NT is full of passages that link immersion and conversion. Practically every verse that mentions baptism ties it to conversion.

As to how we are saved by grace through faith, and yet baptism is somehow involved, that is God's business. Our business is to follow Jesus and not try to split hairs about how salvation "works".

Here's a link to a good article on baptism and conversion in the NT, by Robert Stein from SBTS:

http://www.sbts.edu/pdf/sbjt_1998Spring2.pdf

Les

 

[skypair]

By "mere" symbol I mean that we have taken something that had much more meaning in NT times, even being associated with conversion, and turned it into something that has only a symbolic function, and supposedly accomplishes nothing for the believer in real, spiritual terms.

Les

It seems to me that baptism is the first act of sanctification. You know that when you are saved, you are first justified, given the righteousness of God, in your soul. Everything you do by the power and direction of the Holy Spirit who indwells you counts toward sanctification of your spirit and reward.

However, I have seen baptism overdone in the SBC. That is, my neighbor moved his church letter to my church. He had been baptized in another Baptist church but somehow I guess mine also wanted to "take credit" for him so the required that he be rebaptized. That, to me, is just plain silly. Is that what you mean by "mere symbol?"

And I can't stand the idea that one can't join a baptist church until they are baptized. What message does that send about the requirements to be a member of the REAL -- the invisible but true -- church??

skypair

 

[lbaker]

Sky,

Yeah that does sound pretty silly.

That kind of thing seems to be making it all about getting baptized into a local church, rather than "into Christ" as Paul puts it.

Les