Confessions of a Theistic Determinist

MacArthur, Rogers, and Stanley are excellent preachers. I think you could have used a much better example than Washer, say the late Dr. Kennedy. Washer preached at our church one time, and left it dejected, demoralized, and divided. It will never happen again as long as the Lord gives me strength to have a say about it.

 

Andy, I've read all of the verses you used and many of the others you didn't. My Bible tells me we all are sinners, just some saved and others lost, it all is around what the person did with Christ, did they accept His offer or not.

You didn't answer this: Would you have said David in The OT was carnal or lost in 2nd. Samuel 11, I believe 2nd. Samuel 12 tells us he was saved but carnal at the time of chapter 11. I believe David was out of fellowship at the time but not lost, we know he was a praying man, but at this point of time he was in the wrong place, looking at what he would not have seen if he had either been praying or leading his army. Most all of us have been at the wrong place because we were not doing what we should have been doing, because we were out of fellowship with God at that moment in time. That moment of time could be an hour or less or weeks or even years. How about Peter and his fear, or the person next door, or me, or how about yourself?

I was told right after I got saved, that you don't know how bad you can hurt until you have been cheated or lied to by a Christian, I found that to be very true. I've seen Christians act very bad to other Christians and I have seen preachers speak untruths about other preachers and so on. Keep in mind we have a battle going on at all times, we have the Holy Spirit, the natural man or old nature and self and at times we follow the wrong one. I believe pride is our down fall and man have I fell many times due to pride, said things with the wrong attitude at the wrong time.

Look at Romans 7:15-20. This is the conflict of two natures, the old nature and the new nature. Paul’s sinful human nature influenced him to such an extent that he found himself volitionally doing the things that he despised. We all can identify with him. He is telling us that sin had thoroughly corrupted his nature the flesh. Even though he was a Christian he was still a totally depraved sinner as we all are, check Ro. 3:10–18, 23. He knew what he should do, but he did not always do it.

 

Well, it's 9:15 so I'm gonna get going. Sorry Bob, I'll get back and post in the afternoon. God Bless, and thanks for the great discussion. :godisgood:

 

Hey Bob, I have been thinking intensely about the question, was David saved. He may have been saved, but he wasn't a NT Christian, he was saved in the old covenant. So appealing to characters in the old covenant, to clairfy debates that are taking place about the New Covenant, is not going to work. Sure, we can look at David's dark period of murder/adultery and draw GREAT truths. mainly about God's character and faithfulness to His covenant children. He was there for David, waited for David to repent, and used David's sin to give us two of the greatest prayers of penitence, Ps 32 and Ps 51. All scripture IS profitable, but to appeal to OT narratives like David to say, "see, David was carnal, and he was a Christian.' is, IMO, an invalid point.

Same with Lot. Old Covenant example to disprove a New Covenant concept. There was a different between God's dealings with people, as we Baptists are quick to point out. We believe the principle of dealing with households instead of individuals is abrogated, thus we practice credobaptism instead of oiko or paedo baptism. We believe the ceremonial laws are abrogated due to Christ's perfect sacrifice. There is a difference between the Old and New Covenants.

So why appeal to characters in the OC to disprove a concept that is specifically laid out in the NC?


About us just being sinners saved by God's grace, do you mean that we are identical to the world? That we are no different, only we have been pardoned? If so, I vehemently disagree with that statement. Jesus Christ said he would redeem to himself a PECULIAR people, zealous for good works. We are NEW creatures, not because we have been forgiven, but because we have been changed.

 

Justification has not changed OT to NT. We are ALL saved by grace through faith, and there is no other name under Heaven by which mankind is saved.

The examples of David and Lot stand the test of time.

 

Excellent post webdog. God does not change. We do, plus we do not fully understand God anyhow. We create theories to make our understanding of God seem correct.

 

Andy, No! There should be a difference but we all are lacking. But did you read Romans 7:15-20. Big conflict of two natures, the old nature and the new nature in one person, here Paul. Paul’s sinful human nature influenced him to such an extent that he found himself volitionally doing the things that he despised. We all can identify with him. He is telling us that sin had thoroughly corrupted his nature the flesh. Even though he was a Christian he was still a totally depraved sinner as we all are, check Ro. 3:10–18, 23. He knew what he should do, but he did not always do it.

How about Peter, we all have fell short.

 

I think you're hitting all around a good point here......one which seems so far to be ignored or skirted around by both sides.

The simple fact is that prior to Pentecost, believers were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit came and left as God determined in the lives of OT believers. Subsequent to Pentecost, He is with us always.

To me, this explains a great potential for OT believers like David to get into more continuing sin than we can today. I am not saying that believers do not sin. I will say that the Word teaches that sanctification is not an option, contrary to the teaching of many modern "fundamentalists."
Holiness is an alien concept in many Baptist circles despite the fact we are commanded to "be holy"

Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
(1Jn 3:8-9 ESV)

Words mean what we say they mean......so, if by "carnal Christian" one means a person who is in the "practice of sin" or "continues in sin" the Bible says that person is not saved. My own opinion is that the concept of "carnal Christian" has evolved as an excuse for unholy persons, unregenerate church members, and victims of decisional regeneration.....all those thousands who were "saved" in the big revival but never lived for Christ, never became disciples, were merely numbers on some evangelist's score card.

 

Hey Ed,

Welcome to BB! :godisgood:

Saved or not, there will always be a conflict between the flesh and the spirit (Rom 7:23 -- "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."). In the unsaved, it is the soul/conscience that "gives up"/seared.

But in the Christian, the soul is anchored in Christ. For the believer the question is do I live with this conflict throughout my life and never reap the "abundant life" God promised in Christ --- or do I obey God and avoid the conflict.

In a new Christian, there is this frailty -- that they have not yet been empowered to win the war against the flesh. IOW, for me, being saved didn't automatically make it possible for me to quit smoking (destroying the 'temple').

But in addition to those habits/attitudes we come into salvation with, many Christians find temptation too strong (like Paul did). Take the example of desiring to marry before God sends Mr/Miss Right. You may not be able to "contain" as Paul calls it. But marrying an unbeliever can be hell on earth and a constant conflict of spirit and flesh!

What we don't need is people denying someone's honest profession based on outward judgment. That is their last hope of recovering themselves in many cases. We need to do a little preaching that 1) names sin and 2) teaches godly sorrow/true repentance, 2Cor 7:9-11. For overcoming habits, this is about the best advice in the Bible!

skypair

 

I know that there are small excepts in the OT that seem to imply that certain OT believers had the Holy Spirit, so I was reluctant to make this point. In ps 51 David cries , "cast me not away from your presence and take not your holy spirit from me."

The references are few and scattered, so I'm not saying that there is a good case for OT believers being indwelt by the HS, but here on BB, it would be a point not over-looked by proponents of the carnal christian doctrine.

 

Ed, Glad to see you here.

Can't speak for the rest of you but I know I don't always follow His lead. And if I'm correct anything which we do that isn't to His glory is sin, that would make me a sinner more than I would like to say.