confused about Calvin

[standingfirminChrist]

Why would Christ shed His blood for the sins of the whole world if the whole world is not given the chance to be saved?

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Linda64]

"whosoever will" says NOTHING of who CAN believe, it only says that all who "will" believe will be saved. God never, ever turns His back on anyone who repents and turns to Christ. Whosoever will do that, will be saved.

Why would Jesus say "whosoever will" if He really meant "whosoever can"? That's plain silly!!!

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13)

 

[Linda64]

A decision is an action. A decision is a cause. In this case, you make it the first cause meaning that salvation is dependent on man's decision and not the finished work of Christ.

That's a fine protest but it is false. A decision is work. Even in our daily experience we meet people who are paid to do the work of decision making.

So,I'm not supposed to make a decision for Christ?

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Calvinism is one of the most damnable doctrines taught by some churches. It breeds laziness and pride.

 

[Watchman]

Standingfirm, Linda, Terry, right on.
The Bible clearly teaches that man has a choice in this matter: to refuse or accept God's gracious offer when they are drawn by the Holy Spirit.
God has allowed man this choice and He certainly does not lose any of His attributes because He has allowed man this choice.
Oh yeah, "A decision is work".
Incredible.

 

[Linda64]

A decision is an action. A decision is a cause. In this case, you make it the first cause meaning that salvation is dependent on man's decision and not the finished work of Christ.

That's a fine protest but it is false. A decision is work. Even in our daily experience we meet people who are paid to do the work of decision making.

If one does not choose for Christ, one has already chosen against Him. No decision is a decision.

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. (Matthew 12:30)

 

[standingfirminChrist]

We are only God's servants, Watching. And as we are entrusted with His Word, we are responsible for what we do with that Word. Blessed is that servant whom, when the Lord comes, finds him so doing.

Be blessed, my Brother

 

[Watchman]

and some "elected" to damnation?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calvinism doesn't teach that.

Yes it does.

"Who then shall be saved? That is what His sovereign will decides and nothing else. It is purely a matter of the divine sovereign will which, doubtless for good reasons known to God Himself but none of them relative to anything distinguishing one man morally from another, chooses some and rejects the rest. God's election has nothing to do with foreknowledge except in so far as he foreknows who are to be members of the human race" (Calvin's Institutes III, xxiii, page 10).


"Rejects the rest" is a choice that John Calvin, here quaoted, says that God makes. This rejection, if Cavinism is true, seals their fate.

 

[4His_glory]

Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
Calvinism is one of the most damnable doctrines taught by some churches. It breeds laziness and pride.

Well then I guess, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, William Carrey, Adoniram Judson, George Whitfield, the Apostle Paul, and many others were so surprised to find them selves damned to hell since they believed in a "damable doctrine. I am so glad that you elightened me to their pride and laziness too.

 

[4His_glory]

Originally posted by Watchman:
and some "elected" to damnation?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calvinism doesn't teach that.

Yes it does.

"Who then shall be saved? That is what His sovereign will decides and nothing else. It is purely a matter of the divine sovereign will which, doubtless for good reasons known to God Himself but none of them relative to anything distinguishing one man morally from another, chooses some and rejects the rest. God's election has nothing to do with foreknowledge except in so far as he foreknows who are to be members of the human race" (Calvin's Institutes III, xxiii, page 10).


"Rejects the rest" is a choice that John Calvin, here quaoted, says that God makes. This rejection, if Cavinism is true, seals their fate.

Rejecting those who are already damned because of their own sin is not hte same as damning them, since they are alerady cursed as a result of their sin.

 

[4His_glory]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Why would Christ shed His blood for the sins of the whole world if the whole world is not given the chance to be saved?

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9 is always ripped from its context. Notice to whom the passage is addressed- "usward" that is to say believers. God's will not let us perish but will fulfill His promises to keep us unto eternal life.

2John 2:2 is a wonderful verse. Christ propitiation why sufficient for all, certianly is only applied to those who believe lest hell will be empty. This passage is talking about the sufficiency of Christ's propitiation.

 

[4His_glory]

What bothers me about these discussions, is that there are allways those who display a very un-Christlike attitude. I know there are some Calvinists who have posted some nasty things here in the past, but it alwasy seems to be the non-calvinists who are vitrolic, and make false accusations.

I appreciate both Linda and Standingfirm, for there gentle spirit. This is refreshing. Thank you. It is a blessing to see that Christian's can disagree "agreeably".

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by Linda64:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"whosoever will" says NOTHING of who CAN believe, it only says that all who "will" believe will be saved. God never, ever turns His back on anyone who repents and turns to Christ. Whosoever will do that, will be saved.

Why would Jesus say "whosoever will" if He really meant "whosoever can"? That's plain silly!!!

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13) </font>[/QUOTE]Linda,

I'm glad you quoted romans 10:13 because Paul is quoting from Joel at this point in his letter to the Romans. Here is the Joel verse in its entirety:

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls. " (Joel 2:32, ESV)

Did you catch that? The ones who will call on the Lord are the ones whom the Lord calls.

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by Watchman:
Standingfirm, Linda, Terry, right on.
The Bible clearly teaches that man has a choice in this matter: to refuse or accept God's gracious offer when they are drawn by the Holy Spirit.
God has allowed man this choice and He certainly does not lose any of His attributes because He has allowed man this choice.
Oh yeah, "A decision is work".
Incredible.

Jesus said beliefd (decision for Christ) IS a work, graciously enabled by the Holy Spirit to the elect:

"Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”" (John 6:29, ESV)

 

[Debby in Philly]

Originally posted by bjonson:
"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls. " (Joel 2:32, ESV)

Did you catch that? The ones who will call on the Lord are the ones whom the Lord calls.

But they still gotta call. Which means they gotta know that they gotta call. Did you catch that?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Linda64:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> A decision is an action. A decision is a cause. In this case, you make it the first cause meaning that salvation is dependent on man's decision and not the finished work of Christ.

That's a fine protest but it is false. A decision is work. Even in our daily experience we meet people who are paid to do the work of decision making.

So,I'm not supposed to make a decision for Christ? </font>[/QUOTE]You said that a decision was not work. I responded with proof of why this is an incorrect assertion. I did not say that we don't make decisions for Christ.

What I did say is that all things act in accordance with their nature... and no created thing has the power to change its own nature. It is pure vanity to believe that man can change his nature based on a decision made while in his old nature.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Originally posted by 4His_glory:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
Calvinism is one of the most damnable doctrines taught by some churches. It breeds laziness and pride.

Well then I guess, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, William Carrey, Adoniram Judson, George Whitfield, the Apostle Paul, and many others were so surprised to find them selves damned to hell since they believed in a "damable doctrine. I am so glad that you elightened me to their pride and laziness too. </font>[/QUOTE]You're welcome.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Watchman:
and some "elected" to damnation?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calvinism doesn't teach that.

Yes it does.

"Who then shall be saved? That is what His sovereign will decides and nothing else. It is purely a matter of the divine sovereign will which, doubtless for good reasons known to God Himself but none of them relative to anything distinguishing one man morally from another, chooses some and rejects the rest. God's election has nothing to do with foreknowledge except in so far as he foreknows who are to be members of the human race" (Calvin's Institutes III, xxiii, page 10).


"Rejects the rest" is a choice that John Calvin, here quaoted, says that God makes. This rejection, if Cavinism is true, seals their fate.

I disagree that this is even what Calvin is saying. You are writing between the lines of what he wrote.

God rightly rejects men based on their sin... not because He predestined them to hell. If pure justice were the only objective then God would rightly reject all of us based on our sin... He would save none.

The core of this whole dispute is simply whether one believes that salvation is ultimately dependent on man's ability to do or choose good on his own without God's intervention. If you believe that men at their core are not spiritually dead but rather spiritually marred but still capable of genuine "goodness" independent of God then you should object to calvinism. However if you recognize that scripture calls the unregenerate man "dead"... and that dead implies a restrictive nature then you should believe the doctrines of grace.

I do not believe that man is ultimately good. I believe his heart is wicked and that even the "goodness" we perceive the unregenerate doing has the wrong motivation and thus is sinful. I believe that anything not done to the glory of God is sin... for it gives glory elsewhere.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 4His_glory:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
Calvinism is one of the most damnable doctrines taught by some churches. It breeds laziness and pride.

Well then I guess, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, William Carrey, Adoniram Judson, George Whitfield, the Apostle Paul, and many others were so surprised to find them selves damned to hell since they believed in a "damable doctrine. I am so glad that you elightened me to their pride and laziness too. </font>[/QUOTE]You're welcome. </font>[/QUOTE]I know that such a diligent yet humble theologian of your magnitude should be trusted implicitly... but would you care to cite evidence of such laziness and pride that exceeds or even approaches that which can be cited among non-calvinists?

I have found pretty much the opposite of what you state to be true. Everyone that I know who espouses calvinism demonstrate diligence, deep study and reflection, and sincerity.

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 4His_glory:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
Calvinism is one of the most damnable doctrines taught by some churches. It breeds laziness and pride.

Well then I guess, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, William Carrey, Adoniram Judson, George Whitfield, the Apostle Paul, and many others were so surprised to find them selves damned to hell since they believed in a "damable doctrine. I am so glad that you elightened me to their pride and laziness too. </font>[/QUOTE]You're welcome. </font>[/QUOTE]Terry,

Do you believe Spurgeon and Whitefield preached a "damnable" doctrine? You are the one who made the accusation. Can you actually say, publicly, that these men were leading people astray?