Confusing worship and evangelism

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I knew you were one of them rich Yankees wintering in Florida? When do you head out? South that is! Probably vote twice also!

Like I always say when rich folks spend money: "Spreads the wealth around!"

Naaa, I dont winter anywhere in the South anymore so your wrong.....I have much more fun snowmobiling in the Adirondacks & plan on going to Montreal for Christmas this year. Then if I want warmth I go to the Bahamas or Hawaii--lots more interesting. I try to make it a point to boycott the South these days.

 

[OldRegular]

Naaa, I dont winter anywhere in the South anymore so your wrong.....I have much more fun snowmobiling in the Adirondacks & plan on going to Montreal for Christmas this year. Then if I want warmth I go to the Bahamas or Hawaii--lots more interesting. I try to make it a point to boycott the South these days.

So many yankees have move south they are trying to move the Mason Dixon line to just south of the Keys!:BangHead:

 

[convicted1]

If one truly evangelizes, they have to have the Spirit to do so. If one is truly worshipping God, they must have the Spirit. Without that sweet Spirit, we can do neither.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So many yankees have move south they are trying to move the Mason Dixon line to just south of the Keys!:BangHead:

Ahh...the South has too many storms...oh wait! LOL. Seriously what am I going to do in Dixieland being raised in NJ & PA. I will never again get a good pizza or bagels ... thatsnot my idea of living to be honest. My home is almost payed off & my son is struggling to make a life so he will need a home & if God wills it he can move in and add on & so I could devote time to my grand kids. No yankees that go to Dixieland end up unhappy & alone.

 

[Luke2427]

2 things:

1. Would say it is a sin to use a Banjo in a worship service? If so, how does that fit with your strong opposition to those who would ban all alcohol use because they are forbidding something that scripture does not forbid?

2. Should there not also be celebratory aspects to corporate worship...as in all the "shouting" in the psalms?

1. I am not calling it a sin. I am saying an atmosphere of reverence, not casualness, is appropriate for entering the presence of the God of Isaiah 6, Revelation 4, etc...
I am not saying that there is no place for a banjo at church either. I am saying that the service dedicated supremely to worship, not primarily to fellowship which is important, not teaching which is important, not evangelism which is important- but to worship- that service ought to pursue an appropriate atmosphere befitting the worship of the omnipotent God before whom men and angels fear and prostrate themselves.

2. Yes. This is loud and bursting with energy, which I fully agree with- the worship of God should never be dull and dry (this is why so many have forsaken high worship) but it is still lofty and grand and other worldly.

Let me give you two examples of lofty, celebratory music.
1- A Mighty Fortress sung loudly.
2- the contemporary song "Majesty"

 

[12strings]

The Regulative Principle of Worship ("RPW") (what Luke is advocating), much to the chagrin of some in America, can incorporate differing cultural practices. Unless a church is non-instrumental-exclusive psalmody, how can a distinction be made between using a banjo vis-a-vie a guitar? In some parts of Appalachia they play dulcimers. More important than the musical instrument of choice is the content of worship. How has God instructed us to worship? Prayer, reading the Word, confession of sin, singing, and observing the sacraments ("ordinances" for the non-Reformed) are all commanded in worship. The RPW is not only positive commands from the Bible on how to worship, but it consequently it also forbids expressions of worship that are not positively commanded in the Bible.

I agree with most of what you have posted here...and was once in agreement with a mild form of the regulative principle...however the more I studied it and read those who claimed to hold to it...I became convinced that almost no one really follows that last part about forbidding expressions of worship that are not positively commanded in the Bible. I realize the distinction between elements of worship and the "extras" (lights, pews)...however I don't see a distinction in scripture that would cause me to make the statement that I can only worship God in ways and forms directly commanded in scripture.

I have moved to the Normative: I MUST do what is commanded. I am free in regards to things not mentioned (as I am in other areas of life).

End note: John Frame, who claims to hold to the RP, but in reality of his explainations sounds more like a NP guy...describes it this way: Everything I do IN ALL OF LIFE, should be guided by the positive commands of scripture. So singing "better is one day" is obedience to the command to pray, to sing, to meditate on scripture...Buying carrots at the store is obedience to provide for my family. I am free to do both, so long as I am not disobeying any other commands of scripture: (I am not free to sing "better is one day" while robbing a bank...I am not free to steal the carrots to provide for my family.

 

[12strings]

1. I am not calling it a sin. I am saying an atmosphere of reverence, not casualness, is appropriate for entering the presence of the God of Isaiah 6, Revelation 4, etc...
I am not saying that there is no place for a banjo at church either. I am saying that the service dedicated supremely to worship, not primarily to fellowship which is important, not teaching which is important, not evangelism which is important- but to worship- that service ought to pursue an appropriate atmosphere befitting the worship of the omnipotent God before whom men and angels fear and prostrate themselves.

2. Yes. This is loud and bursting with energy, which I fully agree with- the worship of God should never be dull and dry (this is why so many have forsaken high worship) but it is still lofty and grand and other worldly.

Let me give you two examples of lofty, celebratory music.
1- A Mighty Fortress sung loudly.
2- the contemporary song "Majesty"

1. But you would say it is your opinion that an electric guitar, or a banjo, would not fit an atmosphere of true, reverent worship?

2. We will be singing "A Mighty Fortress" loudly this Sunday...with 2 Guitars, piano, & Bass Guitar.

3. Unfortunately, We will not be singing "Majesty" any time soon due to a bad experince I had with the song 10 years ago...our music minister had just discovered "contemporary" music and decided to begin EVERY service with "majesty" for nearly a year...made me hate the song...sorry. Maybe in another 10 years I'll get over that and start to like it again...if so, I'll put it into a service.

4. I generally agree with the main points of your posts...just trying to press the details so we don't forbid something the bible doesn't forbid.

 

[Luke2427]

1. But you would say it is your opinion that an electric guitar, or a banjo, would not fit an atmosphere of true, reverent worship?

I've never heard them played in a way that creates an objectively observable atmosphere of reverence.

It seems that perhaps you might be thinking that atmosphere is subjective. I don't think there is a reputable psychologist on earth who'd agree.

A dark, foggy, dead forest graveyard is not judged the same as the sun-ray lit Emerald Palace in the Land of Oz universally.

They make the Japanese man feel much the same as they make the American man feel.

There is unquestionably an appropriate atmosphere for the worship of God. God described it in no uncertain terms in Isaiah 6, Revelation 4 and Exodus 19.

2. We will be singing "A Mighty Fortress" loudly this Sunday...with 2 Guitars, piano, & Bass Guitar.

I've heard it done that way. In my experience it makes it more "fun" which is not what I think should be the primary goal of worship- at all.

When everything has to be fun and hip and cool it indicates, in my opinion, that our worship is more about us than God.

Fun, hip and cool have their place in ministry. I have no problem with them at all.

But when it comes to the worship of God, that service dedicated primarily to that end- we need to be above self-serving goals.

4. I generally agree with the main points of your posts...just trying to press the details so we don't forbid something the bible doesn't forbid.

I certainly can appreciate that aim.

 

[convicted1]

Look, you can sing hymns, CCM, accapella, it doesn't equate to any level of "worship" whatsoever. We don't worship God through drums, guitars, banjos, pianos, synthesizers, dobros, etc, but through the Spirit. You can sing "How Great Thou Art", Benny Goodman style(big band era), and without the prescense of the Spirit, you're not worshipping. It's not what we worship with, but through, and that's the Spirit.

 

[preachinjesus]

Obviously this thread is about the Regulative Principle or whatever its called that is popular among Reformed folk.

Just an observation (since my church has been through this controversy and had to request two staff members to leave over it)...but I don't know of a growing church that is reaching people using the principles and methods of the Regulative Principle folks.

I appreciate their heart and desire to reclaim a way of church that is disappearing off our landscape. However, their dogmatism overshadows their arguments and principles and renders their point ineffective.

We use a highly contextualized, progressive worship style and continue to see lives changed, souls saved, and new members welcomed.

The small, fifty member church that split off from us (and took some very nice people) is still at fifty members four years later. Just saying...

 

[MorseOp]

Obviously this thread is about the Regulative Principle or whatever its called that is popular among Reformed folk.

Just an observation (since my church has been through this controversy and had to request two staff members to leave over it)...but I don't know of a growing church that is reaching people using the principles and methods of the Regulative Principle folks.

That is because of the company you keep. You are obviously not a Reformed church, nor have observed a representative number of Reformed churches that would allow you to make the statement you did. Because I am Reformed I have more contact with other Reformed Churches. I have first hand knowledge of these churches and can offer a more informed analysis of their impact; both on their members and their community.

To counter your statement, I know of many churches that use the Regulative Principle that are (to use your words), "(seeing) lives changed, souls saved, and new members welcomed." Why is that? First, God is honored before anything else. How is He honored? He is worshiped in the manner that He has prescribed in Scripture. Second, the Holy Spirit is at work. Men can do nothing in their service to God without the power of the Holy Spirit. Third, the Word of God is preached in power and in truth. It is the Word of God that changes lives. It is the power of God, through the preaching of the Gospel (Romans 1:16), that saves souls.

As one who holds to the RPW, am I suggesting that God cannot work in a church that does not hold to the RPW? No. But in this day and age of watered down worship, weak preaching, and compromised living; we believe that true revival starts with taking God at His word.

 

[Luke2427]

Look, you can sing hymns, CCM, accapella, it doesn't equate to any level of "worship" whatsoever. We don't worship God through drums, guitars, banjos, pianos, synthesizers, dobros, etc, but through the Spirit. You can sing "How Great Thou Art", Benny Goodman style(big band era), and without the prescense of the Spirit, you're not worshipping. It's not what we worship with, but through, and that's the Spirit.

Look, this is bogus.

The God of the Bible was not silent about how men are to approach him.

He said repeatedly in no uncertain terms that men are to worship him with reverence and fear.

No thinking person thinks that every environment is conducive to such worship.

A person who, as you say, seeks to worship him in Spirit will be sensitive to this fact.

It is the dead level opposite of spiritual worship to approach God in worship casually or in any way that suits your fancy.

Don't call such a notion spiritual.

 

[Luke2427]

Obviously this thread is about the Regulative Principle or whatever its called that is popular among Reformed folk.

Just an observation (since my church has been through this controversy and had to request two staff members to leave over it)...but I don't know of a growing church that is reaching people using the principles and methods of the Regulative Principle folks.

I appreciate their heart and desire to reclaim a way of church that is disappearing off our landscape. However, their dogmatism overshadows their arguments and principles and renders their point ineffective.

We use a highly contextualized, progressive worship style and continue to see lives changed, souls saved, and new members welcomed.

The small, fifty member church that split off from us (and took some very nice people) is still at fifty members four years later. Just saying...

First of all let me say that I am glad that growth is important to you. It should be important to every Christian. In some cases it may be impossible but it ought to always be important.

But let me say that you have missed this one big time. Churches that utilize a classical or traditional worship style are growing all over this country by leaps and bounds.

I'll give you two examples of the many that could be provided.

First Presbyterian in Jackson, MS (my childhood home) runs somewhere between two and three thousand. Their worship services are as reverential as one could imagine.

Another is St. Andrews Pres in Sanford Florida that has grown from a few dozen about ten years ago to 1,000-1,300 today.
There may be no more traditional/classical worship anywhere in the evangelical world.

 

[Luke2427]

That is because of the company you keep. You are obviously not a Reformed church, nor have observed a representative number of Reformed churches that would allow you to make the statement you did. Because I am Reformed I have more contact with other Reformed Churches. I have first hand knowledge of these churches and can offer a more informed analysis of their impact; both on their members and their community.

To counter your statement, I know of many churches that use the Regulative Principle that are (to use your words), "(seeing) lives changed, souls saved, and new members welcomed." Why is that? First, God is honored before anything else. How is He honored? He is worshiped in the manner that He has prescribed in Scripture. Second, the Holy Spirit is at work. Men can do nothing in their service to God without the power of the Holy Spirit. Third, the Word of God is preached in power and in truth. It is the Word of God that changes lives. It is the power of God, through the preaching of the Gospel (Romans 1:16), that saves souls.

As one who holds to the RPW, am I suggesting that God cannot work in a church that does not hold to the RPW? No. But in this day and age of watered down worship, weak preaching, and compromised living; we believe that true revival starts with taking God at His word.

Amen.

_________

 

[Old Union Brother]

Look, this is bogus.

The God of the Bible was not silent about how men are to approach him.

He said repeatedly in no uncertain terms that men are to worship him with reverence and fear.

No thinking person thinks that every environment is conducive to such worship.

A person who, as you say, seeks to worship him in Spirit will be sensitive to this fact.

It is the dead level opposite of spiritual worship to approach God in worship casually or in any way that suits your fancy.

Don't call such a notion spiritual.

Christ spoke thes words:

Joh 4:23    But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

 

[Luke2427]

Christ spoke thes words:

Joh 4:23    But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

And?

What is your point?

 

[Old Union Brother]

I totally agree that the Bible describes how we are to worship and approach God. However, There is an appearence that you are saying that you can't worship God without a choir loft, pipe organ, and robes.....if I'm wrong in what you are saying I apologize.

 

[convicted1]

Look, this is bogus.

The God of the Bible was not silent about how men are to approach him.

He said repeatedly in no uncertain terms that men are to worship him with reverence and fear.

No thinking person thinks that every environment is conducive to such worship.

A person who, as you say, seeks to worship him in Spirit will be sensitive to this fact.

It is the dead level opposite of spiritual worship to approach God in worship casually or in any way that suits your fancy.

Don't call such a notion spiritual.

When one truly worships God, fear and reverence are involved.

 

[Luke2427]

I totally agree that the Bible describes how we are to worship and approach God. However, There is an appearence that you are saying that you can't worship God without a choir loft, pipe organ, and robes.....if I'm wrong in what you are saying I apologize.

I am talking about a mentality about worship.

Some churches consist of five people meeting in someone's den once a week. That's the best they can do.

But even so they can have the mentality that they should always be pursuing an atmosphere of reverence as they approach God.

They may be able to do very little to affect their atmosphere- but they ought to believe in the principle nonetheless and hope that they are more and more able as time progresses to produce a more and more reverential atmosphere.

 

[Luke2427]

When one truly worships God, fear and reverence are involved.

You're not listening.

If they have a spirit of reverence they will want the atmosphere to match that spirit.

That's why the country did not hire Gallagher to perform at President Reagan's funeral.

You could say you were possessed by a mournful, respectful spirit but when you schedule Gallagher to come and burst watermelons all over the Reagan family and tell irreverent jokes throughout the funeral service- the fact is that your spirit you claim to have does not match your preferences.

If you claim to have a spirit of reverence then your preference of atmosphere should match that claim.