Magnetic Poles
New Member
Yet another ignorant politician. Education in America is very lacking.
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Congressman calls evolution lie from 'pit of hell'
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
saturneptune
New Member
Again, we agree but probably for different reasons. If I thought his words were from the heart, I would be all for him.
Magnetic Poles
New Member
Regardless of our differences in some of our views, I respect you SN. I believe you are an honest man of integrity. :thumbs:
saturneptune
New Member
Thanks, and I appreciate that.
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Truth is still truth...
SN....you may or may not be right about this particular politician but truth is still truth regardless of who says it. We can't look into this man's heart but one thing you can do with politicians that you can't often do with the voting public....you can check his "voting record" if he is an incumbent and see if his walk matches his talk. In the day we live in, men of character and high ethical standards in elected office or many times in the pulpit as well are sometimes hard to find. It is easier with every passing year to succumb to the temptation to summarily DISMISS them and all I'm saying is that when one of them stands and says the truth in public we should, if possible, publically congratulate them for doing so. Whether or not you would vote for them is altogether a PRIVATE matter which you (or whomever) can deal with in the privacy of the voting booth. God knows the man's heart (and we can all hope he is right with God) but from our standpoint...kudos to him for speaking the truth. We need to publically thank the rare ones that will stand up in this world for Biblical truth since all we have to do is look and listen and it is easy to see and know that in this culture, absolute truth of the kind found in the Word of God is no longer respected as the "default position" of this secular humanist culture we live in. It got kicked out of the public square and the public education system years ago.:tear:
I personally believe that the current concept of this (so-called) "seperation of church and state" is a mis-interpretation of the Constitution of the United States. In our early history it is documented FACT that the church and Christian people in general heavily influenced our foundations and the politicians and the preachers where connected and engaged with one another to the common good. I believe that the church needs to step back up to the plate in our day and re-engage in the battle for truth. It is to our shame and the steady disintegration and decline of our Constitutional REPUBLIC that this is no longer true. Most of the churches are too worried that they will lose their tax-exempt status (as if that should EVER be a factor in whether or NOT we give of our income to the Lord's work). That is just my two cents worth on the matter. Just for the record...I DON"T WANT the church OR the government knowing how much my wife and I give.....it is none of their business...that is between us and God.:thumbsup:
By the way...for the record...again...EVOLUTION (theistic or otherwise) IS A LIE. Our God did indeed SPEAK all of this into existence in 6 literal 24 hour days and then reated on day 7 just like the Word of God says. How could He do that you ask? Because He IS GOD. Can I prove that? Yes....Hebrews 11:1-3. That is all I need because the Spirit bears witness (LOUDLY) within my heart! Amen and Hallelujah!!!
Bro.Greg:type:
SN....you may or may not be right about this particular politician but truth is still truth regardless of who says it. We can't look into this man's heart but one thing you can do with politicians that you can't often do with the voting public....you can check his "voting record" if he is an incumbent and see if his walk matches his talk. In the day we live in, men of character and high ethical standards in elected office or many times in the pulpit as well are sometimes hard to find. It is easier with every passing year to succumb to the temptation to summarily DISMISS them and all I'm saying is that when one of them stands and says the truth in public we should, if possible, publically congratulate them for doing so. Whether or not you would vote for them is altogether a PRIVATE matter which you (or whomever) can deal with in the privacy of the voting booth. God knows the man's heart (and we can all hope he is right with God) but from our standpoint...kudos to him for speaking the truth. We need to publically thank the rare ones that will stand up in this world for Biblical truth since all we have to do is look and listen and it is easy to see and know that in this culture, absolute truth of the kind found in the Word of God is no longer respected as the "default position" of this secular humanist culture we live in. It got kicked out of the public square and the public education system years ago.:tear:
I personally believe that the current concept of this (so-called) "seperation of church and state" is a mis-interpretation of the Constitution of the United States. In our early history it is documented FACT that the church and Christian people in general heavily influenced our foundations and the politicians and the preachers where connected and engaged with one another to the common good. I believe that the church needs to step back up to the plate in our day and re-engage in the battle for truth. It is to our shame and the steady disintegration and decline of our Constitutional REPUBLIC that this is no longer true. Most of the churches are too worried that they will lose their tax-exempt status (as if that should EVER be a factor in whether or NOT we give of our income to the Lord's work). That is just my two cents worth on the matter. Just for the record...I DON"T WANT the church OR the government knowing how much my wife and I give.....it is none of their business...that is between us and God.:thumbsup:
By the way...for the record...again...EVOLUTION (theistic or otherwise) IS A LIE. Our God did indeed SPEAK all of this into existence in 6 literal 24 hour days and then reated on day 7 just like the Word of God says. How could He do that you ask? Because He IS GOD. Can I prove that? Yes....Hebrews 11:1-3. That is all I need because the Spirit bears witness (LOUDLY) within my heart! Amen and Hallelujah!!!
Bro.Greg:type:
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To answer your first question, he was not speaking from the pulpit, addressing the congregation. The church invited him to be one of the speakers at their Sportsman's Banquet. I don't know the specifics of theirs. However, I do know, for a fact, that when we held a similar "Sportsman" event, attendance was over 8 times the number usually in church on Sunday morning.
Next, I know, too, there are members of our Baptist church who believe evolution is a fact. They are still caught up in "Theistic Evolution" just as I was. I know because I talked with some of them following being challenged by our pastor. One couple, in particular, wanted to know what was in the big binder that I was reading when I had the opportunity. (Articles I'd printed from Creation sites, but hadn't had time to do more than just skim them for content.) At that time I hadn't learned enough to do more than listen, as they said the very same things I would have said a month earlier.
I suspect there are great numbers of Baptists who believe what they were taught in public schools, see in movies and TV documentaries, and such. Just saying that the earth is less than 10,000 years old and God began all of it in 6 days isn't enough. The "how" question isn't answered, even for those who have been truly saved. Theistic evolution provides the "how" to believe Jesus died on the cross for us along side all the "evidence" we are shown since kindergarden. Evidence of carbon dating (taught as FACT) proves hundreds of thousands of years were involved. Scriptures show that from God's standpoint a "day" can be more than 24 hours. The big bang and gap theories dovetail nicely with prehistoric fossils embedded in sedimentary rock layers built up over millions of years. There's more.... so much more....
Until I'm proven wrong, I believe there are untold numbers of Baptists who accept evolution. I believe there are pastors in the pulpit who have accepted Theistic evolution, as well as Sunday School and Bible study teachers. Since the very mention of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost have been banned from schools, students aren't given enough of the TRUTH to refute Theistic evolution. How many Baptist churches use cute little tugboats with cartoon characters to teach children about the flood? http://www.wallstory-murals.co.uk/mural_details/Noahs Ark/Noahs ark_details.htm Why should children think that cartoon characters on TV are make-believe and those seen at church represent the reality of God's creation?
How many Baptist churches take the time needed to actually refute, in material ways, the teachings of the secular world with regards to evolution? From my own experience, I KNOW that a few minutes once in a long while isn't enough. (Our SS quarterly takes about 7 years to cover the entire Bible.) A few minutes, once in a while, in a sermon isn't enough to challenge theistic evolution. I KNOW what it took for me to undo my reconcilation of God's word with the "education" that I'd received all my life.
Personal opinion! I'd welcome anyone who would could to our church and lend a hand to our pastor in challenging Baptists still mired in "evolution". Our pastor can't do it by himself. I'm blessed and thankful that he was able to do that for me. It was through a one on one conversation. How often does he have the opportunity, for that specific conversation, with each member of his congregation?
Yes, I agree, in general, there are politicians who will use anything to win votes. I've seen it right here with our own county commissioners. However, it's wrong for me to paint everyone in public office with the same brush. Just as it's wrong for me to assume that left wing media is accurate in their portrayal of anyone in office - right or left.
Just as it took indepth study of Theistic evolution to learn the truth, it takes indepth study of someone in public office to learn the truth about them. Especially one who isn't in our local news, where I can observe, first hand, where they stand.
May I ask how much indepth study have you done with regards to his voting record? Have you researched the bills and why he voted as he did in each one? How many other speeches and interviews have you heard? I, for one, have not seen or heard enough, at this point, to form a sound basis for an opinion on his "motives". After spending the time needed to do such a study, I may end up agreeing with your viewpoint.
But, until that happens, I can't take a stand against anyone, who stands up for God, Jesus Christ and the Bible. It isn't a "popular" stand these days, as has been demonstrated over and over and over again. Anyone in the public arena must have on the full armour of God to withstand the attacks they must endure. Satan is going to do everything he can to take them down. And that includes using Baptists to do it.
Time and time again, I've seen Baptists join the fray when someone uses a bad/poor choice of words to defend their faith in our almighty God. Yank him out of the pulpit. Get him out of office. Hang him from the yardarm because he stumbled in our eyes.
I'm sorry but I'm not free to cast the first stone.
saturneptune
New Member
I think a pastor should be supported by the deacons and congregation in his leadership unless something is not correct Biblically, and I mean Biblically, not because someone disagrees with him.
As I mentioned, the words that the politician used were correct. My post was wrong in this respect and you are correct, every local church is free to invite whoever they want to speak. A hold a place of worship of the Lord in the highest regard, and a politician on the opposite end of the scale.
To answer your other question, yes, I have followed some of his votes, and he has a very conservative record. There seems to be a myth or a subconscienece idea that conservative politicians are good, honest, Godly people, and liberals are immoral and wreckless. One is either an honest politician wanting to serve the American people or they are the typical self indulgent, power hungry people that we elect time after time. This is independent of political philosophy.
I have never met anyone in our church or other churches I have attended that believe in "theistic evolution." That amazes me. I would actually like to attend a study sometime that explains the young earth theory, as that is what I believe.
If there is a congregation that believes that, yes, as many people who can speak against it, the better off. My problem is the gap between a house of God and the general character of a politician.
In regards to several earlier critics of my original post. I still believe it was in error for this church to give this politician a platform to express anti-intellectual opinions that reveal he is misinformed about the basic nature of scientific inquiry.
As one who actually attempts to engage the scientific community in dialogue and opportunities for the Gospel, I am constantly trying to remove instances where Christians make foolish comments like this and create barriers for reaching others.
Evolution isn't a lie from Satan. First of all, this is bad theology. Secondly, it isn't true. Evolution is highly regarded scientific certainty. We see evolution happening all around us. If you don't believe me, just go to a centuries old church and walk into the vestry. You probably have to duck. Well, that is, my friends, a form of evolution. Another form is in the increasingly smaller role your appendix utilizes in your body. 100+ years ago it was an important organ, now it is not as useful since we don't eat the same diet. We simply cannot lump all examples of evolutionary teaching into one pot. That is intellectually dishonest.
If you want to talk about the differences between micro-evolutionary and macro-evolutionary differentiation that's fine. But you cannot lump them together and remain intellectually honest.
I don't understand the part about embryology either. That makes no sense in the larger frame of his reference.
Also, cosmologically the Big Band theory isn't well regarded by cosmologists. It has undergone, and continues to undergo, significant revisions as it is considered. However if one reads Genesis 1 and 2 correctly there is absolutely the possibility of a Big Bang type cosmological beginnings. To misstate the nature of this view and theory is highly specious and intellectually dishonest.
Finally, I am deeply dismayed that this politician would use this kind of platform to blast "secularism" when something better could have been said. If you've got a bunch of men showing up you need to challenge them and exhort them to live God-honoring lives. We need to leverage that moment to talk about the hope of Christ and the love of the Father. Then talk about how they can/must provide that for their families.
It is a pox of our conflation of political and religious life (not unlike this ridiculous "Pulpit Freedom Sunday") that permits this kind of platform abuse by a church and politician.
As one who actually attempts to engage the scientific community in dialogue and opportunities for the Gospel, I am constantly trying to remove instances where Christians make foolish comments like this and create barriers for reaching others.
Evolution isn't a lie from Satan. First of all, this is bad theology. Secondly, it isn't true. Evolution is highly regarded scientific certainty. We see evolution happening all around us. If you don't believe me, just go to a centuries old church and walk into the vestry. You probably have to duck. Well, that is, my friends, a form of evolution. Another form is in the increasingly smaller role your appendix utilizes in your body. 100+ years ago it was an important organ, now it is not as useful since we don't eat the same diet. We simply cannot lump all examples of evolutionary teaching into one pot. That is intellectually dishonest.
If you want to talk about the differences between micro-evolutionary and macro-evolutionary differentiation that's fine. But you cannot lump them together and remain intellectually honest.
I don't understand the part about embryology either. That makes no sense in the larger frame of his reference.
Also, cosmologically the Big Band theory isn't well regarded by cosmologists. It has undergone, and continues to undergo, significant revisions as it is considered. However if one reads Genesis 1 and 2 correctly there is absolutely the possibility of a Big Bang type cosmological beginnings. To misstate the nature of this view and theory is highly specious and intellectually dishonest.
Finally, I am deeply dismayed that this politician would use this kind of platform to blast "secularism" when something better could have been said. If you've got a bunch of men showing up you need to challenge them and exhort them to live God-honoring lives. We need to leverage that moment to talk about the hope of Christ and the love of the Father. Then talk about how they can/must provide that for their families.
It is a pox of our conflation of political and religious life (not unlike this ridiculous "Pulpit Freedom Sunday") that permits this kind of platform abuse by a church and politician.
Here we have yet another example of the pitfallls of altruism. When the term "evolution' is used when the political movement called "evolution" is being criticized it is both appropriate and very intellectual. Evolution is in fact a political movement as much as it is anything else. When someone makes reference to it in that manner, specifically in the op, that is what the reference is to.
Now evolution is being exposed more and more as less of an intellectual endeavor and more of a political movement intended to accomplish other goals. Anyone who denies that practices anti-intellectualism as much as anyone else.
Now evolution is being exposed more and more as less of an intellectual endeavor and more of a political movement intended to accomplish other goals. Anyone who denies that practices anti-intellectualism as much as anyone else.
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Alive in Christ
New Member
Rock on, Rep. Paul Broun. Rock on! :thumbs:
Wish more candidates would speak the truth regarding this issue..
The down side of this is that it will probably make his chance at winning completly imposible, as the worldlings will consider him a fruit cake, but I love his being williing to speak the truth.
Wish more candidates would speak the truth regarding this issue..
The down side of this is that it will probably make his chance at winning completly imposible, as the worldlings will consider him a fruit cake, but I love his being williing to speak the truth.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The Representative is a medical doctor so it is untrue that he is misinformed about scientific inquiry!
Compromising the truth is not the way to remove barriers. You appear to be an appropriate believer in Bio-Logos!
This is false. Evolution is a concept. It does not even rise to the level of theory because it cannot be demonstrated. It certainly is not a certainty.
You obviously have a poor understanding of what evolutionists believe about evolution. Humans in general are larger than they were centuries ago. This is likely due to better nutrition but they are still human!
You lumped them together above though I am not sure your examples would qualify as micro evolution. Furthermore your deductions about the appendix are faulty:
The Big Bang postulates the eternity of matter/energy in an attempt to deny God! You correctly state it is under continuous revision for the simple reason it does not explain observations.
The liberals have been doing it for years. So now you are dismayed.
I do not believe it is appropriate to turn the pulpit over to anyone for secular use whether they are black, white, democrat, Republican, conservative, or liberal.
I have no problem with the pastor expressing his views as long as they are expressed in an appropriate manner. I also have no doubt that the majority of pastors in the country are of liberal persuasion.
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saturneptune
New Member
Well, in this thread alone there are both sides posting against what I stated. To make myself clear, I without a doubt believe through faith in a young earth, literal six day Creation by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. To me, that is not the issue of this thread. The issue is a politician using a sacred forum to speak regardless of his political stance. It is not an appropriate setting. I posted two articles that showed use of a public office for self enrichment. In theory, I agree with the Congressman about evolution.
Old Timer and Greg, please just agree to disagree, because I very much enjoy and respect your opinions.
Old Timer and Greg, please just agree to disagree, because I very much enjoy and respect your opinions.
If God is indeed the Creator, then a science that either denies or avoids the fact is not a science, and alternate theories are neither intelligent nor scientific. Any government that refuses to acknowledge a Creator perverts justice.
If God is not the Creator, then CBT, preachinjesus and MP can be considered reasonable and balanced.
If God is not the Creator, then CBT, preachinjesus and MP can be considered reasonable and balanced.
Freedom of religion, speech and assembly, brother. Whether he was campaigning or not in this setting, it is indeed right and proper for one who governs to acknowledge God and the truth of Christianity in his politics, and to acknowledge his politics in the practice of his religion.
MP commended you. You should re-examine your stand.
So there are, in your studied view, only two positions:
1. The view of 6 literal day, ex nihilo creation of the entire cosmos and earth about 9,000 years ago by God.
Or
2. Any other view.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Actually he was not using a "sacred forum".
I thought he was speaking from the pulpit during a "worship service". He obviously was not!
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Since you from West Texas I doubt he was seeking your support. Could you enlighten us on just what was fundamentalist about his theology?
quantumfaith
Active Member
Kudos for you courage.