Congruent Election

[InTheLight]

Well the way I understand it God knew Adam would sin (both of them together) but he didn't cause them to sin or was the Author of their sin... ITL is in error

I do not believe God is the author of sin. I do not believe God caused Adam and Eve to eat the fruit. But there are strains of Calvinism that believe so, other strains that say the mumbo-jumbo that Luke2427 has put forth whereby they deny God is the author of sin, but their words say something else. That's what I'm addressing. This idea that God caused A&E to eat of the fruit and then denying that God caused them to sin. Can't have it both ways.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I do not believe God is the author of sin. I do not believe God caused Adam and Eve to eat the fruit. But there are strains of Calvinism that believe so, other strains that say the mumbo-jumbo that Luke2427 has put forth whereby they deny God is the author of sin, but their words say something else. That's what I'm addressing. This idea that God caused A&E to eat of the fruit and then denying that God caused them to sin. Can't have it both ways.

OK.......who other than Luke on this board that has expressed that particular belief?

 

[InTheLight]

OK.......who other than Luke on this board that has expressed that particular belief?

There has been a couple of others over the years, but I can't remember their screen names. They no longer post here.

 

[SovereignGrace]

OK.......who other than Luke on this board that has expressed that particular belief?

Okay, allow me to take a stab at this.

Both sides agree that it was the Serpent and not God who tempted Eve. As the bible avers When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;[James 1:13] Yet, we see some things that if the fall was no part of His plan, He would have not done as He did. First off, He placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden with Adam and Eve. If the fall had not been part of the plan, He would not have placed that Tree there, as they would not have sinned. Secondly, the Serpent gained entrance into the Garden, and if God truly did not desire to see the it happen, the Serpent would have never gained entrance.

So, we have God placing the Tree in the Garden and the Serpent gaining entrance into the Garden to tempt Eve via that Tree. So I think it is safe to say that God decreed/ordained the fall. If not, those things that happened that caused it to take place would have never gotten to Eve and then to Adam.

So God was very willing that it occur. Yet, it was via the Serpent and not God, that the it took place.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Consider this:

Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

And lead us not into temptation,.... Such a petition as this is often to be observed in the prayers of the Jews (a),

אל תביאני, "do not lead me" neither into sin, nor into transgression and iniquity, ולא לידי נסיון, "nor into temptation", or "into the hands of temptation";''

that is, into the power of it, so as to be overcome by it, and sink under it; in which sense the phrase is to be understood here. We are not here taught to pray against temptations at all, or in any sense, for they are sometimes needful and useful; but that they may not have the power over us, and destroy us. There are various sorts of temptations. There are the temptations of God; who may be said to tempt, not by infusing anything that is sinful, or by soliciting to it; but by enjoining things hard and disagreeable to nature, as in the case of Abraham; by afflicting, either in body or estate, of which Job is an instance; by permitting and letting loose the reins to Satan, and a man's own corruptions; by withdrawing his presence, and withholding the communications of his grace; and sometimes by suffering false prophets to arise among his people: his ends in them are on his own account, the display of his power; grace, wisdom, and faithfulness; on account of his Son, that his saints might be like him, and he might have an opportunity of exercising his power and pity: and on his people's account, that they might be humbled; their faith and patience tried; might see their weakness, and need of Christ, and be excited to prayer and watchfulness. There are also the temptations of Satan; which lie in soliciting to evil, suggesting hard and blasphemous thoughts of God, and filling with doubts and fears; which are cunningly formed by him, and are very afflictive. There are moreover the temptations of the world, which arise from poverty and riches, from the men of the world, the lusts of it, and from both its frowns and flatteries: add to all this, that there are temptations arising from a man's own heart. Now, in this petition, the children of God pray, that they may be kept from every occasion and object of sinning; from those sins they are most inclined to; that God would not leave them to Satan, and their own corrupt hearts; nor suffer them to sink under the weight of temptations of any sort; but that, in the issue, they might have a way to escape, and be victorious over all. - John Gill

 

[tyndale1946]

Consider this:

Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

And lead us not into temptation,.... Such a petition as this is often to be observed in the prayers of the Jews (a),

אל תביאני, "do not lead me" neither into sin, nor into transgression and iniquity, ולא לידי נסיון, "nor into temptation", or "into the hands of temptation";''

that is, into the power of it, so as to be overcome by it, and sink under it; in which sense the phrase is to be understood here. We are not here taught to pray against temptations at all, or in any sense, for they are sometimes needful and useful; but that they may not have the power over us, and destroy us. There are various sorts of temptations. There are the temptations of God; who may be said to tempt, not by infusing anything that is sinful, or by soliciting to it; but by enjoining things hard and disagreeable to nature, as in the case of Abraham; by afflicting, either in body or estate, of which Job is an instance; by permitting and letting loose the reins to Satan, and a man's own corruptions; by withdrawing his presence, and withholding the communications of his grace; and sometimes by suffering false prophets to arise among his people: his ends in them are on his own account, the display of his power; grace, wisdom, and faithfulness; on account of his Son, that his saints might be like him, and he might have an opportunity of exercising his power and pity: and on his people's account, that they might be humbled; their faith and patience tried; might see their weakness, and need of Christ, and be excited to prayer and watchfulness. There are also the temptations of Satan; which lie in soliciting to evil, suggesting hard and blasphemous thoughts of God, and filling with doubts and fears; which are cunningly formed by him, and are very afflictive. There are moreover the temptations of the world, which arise from poverty and riches, from the men of the world, the lusts of it, and from both its frowns and flatteries: add to all this, that there are temptations arising from a man's own heart. Now, in this petition, the children of God pray, that they may be kept from every occasion and object of sinning; from those sins they are most inclined to; that God would not leave them to Satan, and their own corrupt hearts; nor suffer them to sink under the weight of temptations of any sort; but that, in the issue, they might have a way to escape, and be victorious over all. - John Gill

that there are temptations arising from a man's own heart. Now, in this petition, the children of God pray, that they may be kept from every occasion and object of sinning; from those sins they are most inclined to; that God would not leave them to Satan, and their own corrupt hearts; nor suffer them to sink under the weight of temptations of any sort; but that, in the issue, they might have a way to escape, and be victorious over all.

I thank God for all the theologians of old and their God inspired ways of putting things... John Gill is one of my favorites and as scriptures say he that is dead now speaketh... Ah yes the human condition in the child of Grace... I struggle with this daily... Brother Glen