Consequences of the Warning Passages in Hebrews

God does not make a mistake.

The Call is everything in my mind.

It is a Grace that is above all question.

David

 

J. Jump, I will try to address some of your comments.

I am not arguing for sinless perfection. The characters in Hebrews 11 are examples of faith but none of them were perfect. Certainly Abraham sinned. When he failed he was lacking faith. He grew stronger in faith as he continued to walk with God.

I have stated and then quoted my position on this as a summary of what I said in my sermon. Apparently you disagree with it, at least Webdog did. Then I reworded it to completely disagree with myself and Webdog did not agree with that either. I really wish you guys would speak clearly and say what you mean.

You appear to me to be saying that a person can make a profession of faith and then have absolutely NO evidence of salvation in his life, yet still be saved and be certain of it. Am I misunderstanding you? Please state your position clearly.

No we do not go in and out of salvation. Again, Abraham sinned in his life and severely. Yet the trajectory of his life was one of increasing faith and godliness so that, later in life, when God tested him he passed the test beautifully.

Abraham is not the father of faith becuase his faith is unique and rare but because his faith is the norm. You appear to be arguing for a faith in which good works are or can be the exception.

And then there is this exchange which leaves me completely baffled. You said

I replied

Faith is the continuing mark of the believer.

Then you said:

So you are saying that faith does not have to be a part of our lifestyle but you agree that it is the continuing mark of the believer. Jump, you've got my head spinning!

 

You have stated my position exactly. God does not require evidence. He requires faith. Once you have placed your faith in the finished works of Christ eternal (spiritual) salvation is a done deal.

The very moment you believed in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ on your behalf a sinner eternal salvation became a non-issue.

To require proof would mean that eternal salvation is not a one-time event, but a life-long process and the possibility of security would be non-existent, becuase you wouldn't know whether you were okay until the day you died and were still believing and even at that you wouldn't know for sure, becuase you wouldn't know if you've done the right things or if you had done the right amount of the right things.

How much does one have to prove? Do I have to prove my salvation as much as you do or do I have to do more than you for some reason?

If you believe on Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, His Death and His shed blood on your behalf a sinner you are saved. That's what the Bible says and I believe it.

Adding anything to that is works based salvation whether it be pre-loaded, present-loaded or back-loaded.

And just to add there is no way that I can prove to you or to anyone else that I believe any more than I can prove to you that my wife just came up and kissed me on the cheek.

Now do you believe that my wife just kissed me on the cheek or am I lying?

I don't know if you have heard the term of Hall of Faith being referred to in Hebrews 11, but I have heard that chapter referred to that a lot. They make the comparison of the Hall of Fames. The last time I checked the Hall of anything is far from the norm.

There is nothing in Scripture that shows us that Abraham's faith was the norm for believers. I think he and the others that are brought out in Hebrews 11 are exceptions and shown to us as examples of what we should strive for not what the norm is.

I'm not arguing for it, just believing what Scripture has to say about the matter. You even proved my point for me with your use of Ephesians 2:10.

It says we SHOULD do the works, not that we WILL do the works. We should walk in the Spirit. It doesn't say we will walk in the Spirit. We should mortify the deeds of the body. It doesn't say we will mortify the deeds of the body.

I could go on and on as the NT is full of those examples. Works are not a guarantee, but a choice that has to be made. Discipleship is not an automatic, but one must choose to be a disciple of Christ. And if one chooses the life of discipleship there will be a great cost involved!

No that's not completely accurate. Faith MUST be a part of our lifestyle, but that doesn't mean it WILL be a part of our lifestyle. Faithfulness is required by God, but that doesn't mean we will obey.

Hope that clarifies.

 

J. Jump,
Thanks for your honest reply. I guess it's obvious that I completely disagree. Others who read the thread will have to decipher is the warning passages in Hebrews support what you are saying of if they lead to what I am saying.

A person can be saved by God's power, the same power that raised Jesus from the dead and yet their life can be completely void of any evidence of that power. Wow!

 

See that's just it. People don't have to be WOWed by this, because it is in Scripture. Once again if we are going to live the correct way and that is an automatic then why are we commanded, exhorted and encouraged to do things that are going to be automatic? That just doesn't make sense.

There is no need to tell me to do something that I am automatically going to do. There is no need to command me to do something that I am automatically going to do.

I would ask again if we "will" do good works as you suggest then how do you get around Ephesians 2:10 which says we should not we will. Is Scripture lying there?

 

I am not aware of anyone saying that we automatically live the Christian life. Rather, the scriptures refer to the Christian life as, among other things, warfare.

 

Okay now you have my head spinning. Did you not say this a couple of pages back?

Now you can call me crazy if you want to, but that sure sounds like you are saying the Christian life is an automatic thing.

You are correct in that the Christian life is called warefare. It is also referred to as a race among other things.

And we can participate in the race or we can sit on the sidelines and be losers. We can fight in the battle or we can be defeated by the enemy. It is our choice.

Now in light of your new statement . . . since the Christian life is not an automatic what happens to those Christians that are found to be unfaithful, disobedient and overcome? Does God just overlook that and say that's okay My child here's a corner piece of heaven and you just come on in?

If that is the case why do I have to do the right thing when I can still get my piece of cake and the best of what this world has to offer as well?

 

I based my statement on Ephesians which says that we are saved unto good works which God has fore-ordained that we should walk in them.

This is not the same thing as saying that good works are automatic. I did not say they are automatic. You read that meaning into my statement.

Good works in this life are certain for the believer, yet perfection, in this life, is not possible.

Saying that good works are certain is not the same as saying that good works are automatic. If they were automatic they would require no effort on our part. Good works and Christ-likeness require effort on our part. This is why Paul said "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling...."

 

J. Jump, if you stop serving Christ and just do what you want to do in the flesh, does the Spirit of God who indwells you not prick your heart and convict your conscience and call you back to faithfulness?

 

Brother you are struggling. If something is certain to happen that means its going to happen. It is a given. It is automatic. It doesn't matter what term you use to describe it

Again "should" walk in them is not the same thing as "certain" to walk in them.

It means you should, but there is the possibility that you won't.

Again this is just not a good analogy. It is an automatic that when I wake up in the mornings I am going to get out of bed if I am physically able, but just becuase it is an automatic doesn't mean it doesn't require effort.

It is an automatic that I'm going to go to work, but that doesn't mean going to work is effortless.

 

At least for a while. But that doesn't mean that the person will heed that prick or conviction. You can be disciplined, but that doesn't mean the person will respond. Later in Hebrews tells us that. We can refuse the discipline of the Lord. And if we do we are not sons, but bastards.

Notice is doesn't say not children, but not sons. This is a warning to saved folks that refuse the discipline of the Lord. It doesn't mean that they stop being a child of God (eternally saved), but that they will not be sons.

 

What is the difference between a child of God and a son?

 

Amy that is a great question! It has to do with inheritance and position. Firstborn sons are the only ones that rule and reign. Firstborn sons get the double portion of the inheritance.

That is just a very brief glimpse into the answer to your question. If you want a more detailed look at the Scriptural difference let me know and I can PM you some great study resources.

 

Several comments, J. Jump;
you are contradicting yourself. On the one hand you say that if something is certain then it is automatic, but when I cite scripture that says that good works are fore-ordained by God, you say that they are possible, but not certain. You are saying that what God fore-ordains is not certain?

And this:

Jump, that‘s exactly what I said, yet you are arguing with me!

And when I asked if you would get convicted by the Spirit if you stopped serving God, you said

This takes us back to the original issue. If a person is saved and they stop living by faith, God will convict them. He will discipline them, not to punish them or "make them pay" for their sins, but he will discipline them for the purpose of bringing them back to obedience just as a father does not punish his son for retribution, but he disciplines his Son for his betterment. The next section is where you misquote the passage and miss its meaning with your inaccuracy. The passage DOES NOT SAY "We can refuse the discipline of the Lord". Rather it says "If you are left without disciplne (that is, if God does not discipline you), then you are illigitimate sons (or bastards as the ole KJV minceth not the words) and not sons. If God does not discipline you, then you are not his son. Ultimately, you cannot refuse to obey him unless you are not his son to start with. So when you say that God will convict you only for a while if you rebel against him, this passage is saying that if God stops disciplining you in your disobedience, then you are not saved.

I want to go back to an earlier argument that you made as well. You said that Hebrews 11 is a hall of faith in which people are enshrined whose faith is so great that few of us could ever rise to such faith. J. Jump, this is nonsense, and I just can't let it pass. To say such a thing to other Christians is to discourage them from entering into the warfare they should enter to become what God intends them to be. In the book of James, James speaks of Elijah and his great prayer of faith. He prayed that it would not rain and it did not for three years. Then he prayed that it would rain and it did. James says of Elijah that he was a man with a nature JUST LIKE OURS, yet through faith, he prayed and God wrought a tremendous work. People in the Bible who are people of faith are not super-humans with unattainable faith. They were just like me and you, J. Jump. Jesus told us that if we have faith as small as a grain of mustard seed we can pray and move mountains. And finally, listen to the writer of Hebrews as he concludes his section on the heroes of faith. He says "and all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us.... It's not that they had faith that we cannot duplicate. The point is that if we have the same kind of faith they had we will be provided with something bettern than what they received. I do not believe that you are rightly dividing the word in this area, my friend, and the effect of what you are saying is a discouragement to people who want to do God's will.

 

J., I did some reading and I don't see any difference between being a child of God and a son. Both receive the inheritance. Jesus was the firt born of many. We are not the first born.

 

Both receive an inheritance, but both do not receive the same inheritance. Big difference. Esau sold his birthright to his brother . . . meaning he sold his rights as firstborn. He still received an inheritance, but it wasn't the same as his brother received.

Only the firstborn sons receive a double portion.

There is a big difference. Like I said I have some great resource material that can help you if you would like it.

 

Not at all swaimj. Again you are misreading and placing the emphasis in the wrong place in Ephesians 2:10. You are saying that God foreordained the works meaning that the works will be done. But that's not what the verse says.

God foreordained the works. He didn't foreordain the actions. We still have to do the works. Its just the works that we are to be doing are already ordained for us.

You can see an example of this in the OT book of Ruth. While Ruth was harvesting the work was laid out before her, but she still had to go and do the work.

If us completing the works were a certainty or automatic as you suggest then why did the Holy Spirit move the author to use "should" instead of "will".

If you want to say that someone is definitely going to do something you don't use a word that implies that they may or may not do it. The Holy Spirit chose the exact word He wanted to us and we must understand Scripture in that Light.

That Light is a subjunctive verb which means it may or may not happen. The works are there to be done. They are set out in front of us ready for the taking, but we must choose to do them and then actually do them.

Brother that's not what you said. Go back and re-read your post. You said when something is automatic it requires no effort. I can't post your quote, because the posts didn't go back far enough and I had already started typing a bunch. But what you said is exactly opposite of my quote there.

You are right. God does chastise His children. But I see no evidence that He continues to do that forever even though a child remains rebellious.

If you will go back to to verse 5 it says do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord. That says we can see the discipline of the Lord as no big thing, which means that we can not heed the discipline therefore we are rejecting it.

So while the exact wording is not there, the thought definitely is. There is no inaccuracy there as you claim.

And I would point out your inaccuracy in that none of the translations that I read which was eight had illigitimate sons. It is illigitimate children not sons. You can reference my conversation with Amy for more detail on that subject.

Amen! That's exactly what I've said.

Sorry Scripture just doesn't support your stance here. God does not discipline those that are not His. So God is not going to start discipline an unsaved person and do it for a while and then just say okay you aren't a son.

If you aren't saved God does not discipline you. If you are saved then God will discipline you, but if you continue in rebellion that doesn't mean you weren't saved. You can see this not only in this passage in Hebrews but you can also see this in the OT children of Israel in the wilderness.

They were all saved (came out of Egypt via the blood), but not all of them made it to the land flowing with milk and honey. Some of them fell short of their calling.

That doesn't mean they weren't saved. That just means that didn't finish the race and died short of the finish line.

And the same thing can happen to Christians. We have a land that we have been called to (and it's not heaven as most of Christendom contends), and if we don't finish the race we will die short of the finish line.

If you choose to save your life (soul) now you will lose it in the age to come. But if you choose to lose your life (soul) now you will find life in the age to come.

There is life or there is death at the end of the race. We will either live and rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years as firstborn sons, or we will lose our souls during that time and I believe our discipline will continue. After which the Bible says God will wipe away all the tears and then we will step into eternity, everyone on the same page.

Hold up the train there brother. You have totally twisted what I said. Yes I have said that Hebrews 11 is referred to as the Hall of Faith. But I NEVER said that was a discouragment. These people that are spoken of here are examples that we should strive to be like. There is nothing discouraging about that. Just because their faith is not the norm doesn't mean it is a discouragment as we can't have faith like that.

So you are way off in left field here because you are putting words into my mouth that just aren't there!

I thought you were going to make a different point the rest of the way, but it was more of the same so I'm not going to re-quote your mis-statements on my behalf!