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Conservative vs Liberal

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by JonC, Dec 15, 2022.

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  1. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Six hour warning

    This thread will be closed no sooner than 2 pm EST / 11 am PST
     
  2. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Correct, the reference is to God. A reference to God is a theological reference.

    But we agree that this does not make the DOI a theological treatise.

    However, as far as it goes, it is correct in its theological references.

    God is creator of man. What man has comes from God. What God has given man is not for other men to presume to separate from him.

    This results in certain rights being recognized among men as emanating from God.

    Only God has the authority or the power to separate him from them.

    God is supreme over men, even over their governments.

    There is nothing unbiblical about any of that.
     
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  3. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    I’ll just close by posting a reference for anyone interested in seeing an earlier document that more fully represents the ideas the DOI incorporates.

    The Rights of the Colonists by Samuel Adams
    The Rights of the Colonists
     
  4. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    You're arguing that they were saying justice cannot be done, which is false.

    Reading further into the list of abuses enumerated in the DOI tells us exactly what they meant.

    But you don't believe anyone has any rights by nature. What can a government or corporation take, violate, or otherwise infringe upon that is not possessed by another?

    Are you now arguing that men are endowed with certain rights?
     
  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth upon this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

    ...


    It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they here gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    As you correctly pointed out self evident.
     
  7. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Here are a couple of excerpts from the article:


    “Just and true liberty, equal and impartial liberty” in matters spiritual and temporal, is a thing that all men are clearly entitled to, by the eternal and immutable laws of God and nature, as well as by the law of nations, and all well-grounded municipal laws, which must have their foundation in the former.


    …In short it is the greatest absurdity to suppose it in the power of one or any number of men, at the entering into society, to renounce their essential natural rights, or the means of preserving those rights, when the great end of civil government from the very nature of its institution is for the support, protection, and defense of those very rights: the principal of which… are life, liberty, and property. If men, through fear, fraud, or mistake, should in terms renounce and give up any essential natural right, the eternal law of reason and the great end of society, would absolutely vacate such renunciation; the right to freedom being the gift of God almighty, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift, and voluntarily become a slave.​
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Where do you get your ideas?

    I'm not arguing that justice cannot be done. I'm arguing that you are not seeking justice.

    Men are endowed with rights in the context of "a people" in that they are benefactors if what man is prohibited to do.

    But I still insist on the Sovereignty of God over creation (even man).
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes. It is self evident that murder is wrong.
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'll conclude by restating my position.

    Man lives not by his own right but by the grace of God. He is the Potter, we are the clay.

    The rights in the DOI ate in a specific political context doing with human rights within "a people".

    God is Sovereign.
     
  11. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    This thread is closed
     
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