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Consider Jack and Joe - who is worse?
- Thread starter Skandelon
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
If your reject the doctrine of Irresistible calling (which it appears from what you've said above that you do) then we have no real disagreement. I believe the Holy Spirit wrought Gospel appeal does draw (drag) all who hear it, but not irresistibly so. A person can be drawn but rebel and grow hardened by continually rejecting the Holy Spirit's appeal. The gospel is a kind of dragging, I suppose, but man can chose to 'trade the truth in for a lie' and dig his feet in to resist the Holy Spirit's drawing appeal.
What some fail to understand is that in John 6 the gospel appeal hadn't been sent out yet. It wasn't until Christ was raised up that he commissioned his apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel. That is when God lift up Christ and draws all men to himself. (ref. John 12:32; Acts 1) Prior to that Jesus was 'hiding the truth in parables lest the Jewish leaders repent and be healed,' and God was sending them a 'spirit of stupor' so they couldn't fully understand. This was done to ensure the crucifixion of Christ and the ingrafting of the Gentiles into the church. (ref. Rom. 11)
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I agree with Paul 100%, that Jesus died to save sinners. This would mean Jesus died for all men, as all men are sinners. It is you that does not believe Paul, you only believe Jesus died for the elect. You cannot look a sinner in the eyes and tell him Jesus died for him, because you would have to know if he was elect.
Truth is, if Limited Atonement is true (which it isn't), then you do not know for certain Jesus died for you. You may have simply convinced yourself you are one of the elect when you are not.
And deep down you know what I say is true.
Wrong...Christ died. Was He born into sin? I'm surprised you went a 180 on this point and regurgitating the same tired lines you once refuted truthfully.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Why do all, without exception, sin?
Whatever I post Winman is for your edification!
All that God the Father elects unto Salvation and gives to the Incarnate Son, Jesus Christ, shall come to Jesus Christ for Salvation.
John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
The above Scripture shows the total inability of man to come to Jesus Christ of his own volition!
John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
The above Scripture shows that those God has elected to Salvation in Jesus Christ will come to Him! I have posted the Scripture Winman, does that mean I win?
No Winman you are asking me to judge God and I don't even have the power or ability to judge you! You really want me to say that God is unjust because man is born with a nature to sin. If you want to say that God is unjust then feel free. It is you who are enamoured with the free will of man. Exercise that free will if you choose.
I have presented Scripture on two occasions that shows what Scripture teaches about man and the righteousness of God. I present then the third time. If you want to find fault with these Scripture then do so and we can continue the discussion.
Job 4:17. Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Job 9:2. I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
Romans 9:18-20
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Actually, your answer makes me cringe!
Oh! Trust me, I do and have nothing to hold back - as in a belief that others might not have any hope. As a matter of fact if one isn’t all spoiled rotten (Col 2:8) because of buying into the Systematic Determinist’ traditions of trying to force fit pre-selection election he can clearly see the scripture makes clear promises to all that is the exact opposite of the teaching of the “Doctrine of Forget Hope/Determinism” in that all are offered grace on one real condition, through faith. (Eph 2:9)
This is an example of the message of grace through faith that I proclaim:
(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.
As you say, "to be blunt", the deterministic view is stupid.
If you don’t like the idea that you have to respond from your own heart in faith take it to the Lord in prayer.
Your focus is on grace alone and that is simply not Biblical.
I am concerned about your preference to leave the condition of one’s own free response of faith out of the salvific message all-together, whether it is for yourself or others.
It is as if those of the Determinist persuasion hate the fact that they would have to confess in faith from their own heart of their own free will and rather love to profess the message of darkness:
“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”
(1Jn 1:5)
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
(Joh 1:9)
Did you have no choice? Did faith have to be determined upon you??? Sad ,sad, sad, where is the love of the truth in that nonsensical determinist’ view which is clearly contrary to Romans 10:9 and 10 and the whole purpose of God in creating the world in love and revealing this Light to all in it what He did for us?
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(Rom 1:17-20)
There is true judgment in this matter:
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
(Deu 32:4)
You must believe with your own heart to be justified:
(Rom 10:10) For a person believes with his heart and is justified, and a person declares with his mouth and is saved.
Yes, please do be honest, don’t take out the condition of faith from your doctrine, throw out that deterministic garb about grace which makes one ashamed to even tell others that God loves and died for them for the purpose to bring a genuine offer of grace to all in the world He created, and also be honest to yourself, because the condition of true faith from one’s own heart is the only way one is justified and freely receives grace from God.
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
(Rom 3:22-24)
You don’t know that you were specially pre-selected, you can’t claim faith that didn’t come from your own heart, don’t be deceived even the devils believe yet they tremble, one needs faith in love of the Truth that God is Love which only comes from knowing Him and loving Him from your own heart.
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
(Gal 5:5-6)
Friend, I could go on all day and night telling what the scripture says and it doesn’t ever exclude anyone from hope except those who refuse to believe, or have faith from within their own hearts after hearing the truth. Again, God's judgment in the matter is not made against those who could not respond as He is judges in truth. (Deut 32:4) And I would never come to the point that I could not be transparently honest or be deterred away from proclaiming that all have hope in the promise of God’s grace through faith because of some foolish doctrine that tries to force fit determinism into God's plan of salvation.
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(Joh 3:15-17)
It is pure wickedness to ever preach some may have no hope (as some here have admittted doing) because of suggesting others may not have the ability to respond to God’s light which He gave to everyman in the world to see and the genuine abiity to respond to. Stop buying into the condemnation of people through your man-made deterministic doctrine of pre-selected election, it does the work of the devil in telling people they may have been created without hope, he doesn’t want them to have faith from their own heart and he does wants them to believe they have an excuse to not respond; the determinist' message of darkness for some is clearly contrary to the word of God!
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Because they can. All men have free will and can choose their own way if they desire. We are born flesh which tempts us, and we are born into a sinful world that tempts us.
Adam and Eve were "very good" and lived in a perfect world, yet they sinned the very first time they were tempted. What makes you think that we, born into a corrupt world with thousands of temptations would do any better?
Like Cool Hand Luke said after the warden beat him over the head and told the other prisoners he did it for their own good, "I wish you'd stop being so good to me Captain".
No, you don't win. This scripture does not say God only gives the gospel to some men, but it does say that no man can come unto Christ unless God has given (the gospel) them. I have repeatedly said that no man could possibly believe in Jesus unless God had graciously revealed Jesus to us through his word and men who preach his word. No man in his natural carnal mind would ever conceive of God's plan of salvation which is the gospel, this is a supernatural revelation.
I am not asking you to judge God, I am asking you to judge your "Doctrines of Grace" according to your own God-given sense of right and wrong and what is truly just. You have agreed that you would never condemn a newborn child for being addicted to drugs because his mother was a sinner and used drugs while she was pregnant, yet your DoGs teach that God condemns all men for a depravity inherited from Adam through no fault or choice of their own. Your DoG offends your own conscience.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
As you see, God does not condemn the son for the sins of his father or vice versa. Your doctrine contradicts the word of God.
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Winman
Because Jesus died to save sinners does not mean all sinners,as not all men will be saved..... you saying...this would mean
does not make it so:thumbs: You ignore God's eternal Covenant purpose which is why you do not come to truth.
The elect are sinners...sinners who get saved...so Paul was correct.
I do not know if Jesus died for him so i would not lie to him , I will tell him that Jesus died for sinners and all men qualify as sinners. I let him know that all the sinners that Jesus did die for ....will come to saving faith as God the Spirit will draw all given to Jesus as He taught in Jn 6:37.
If you understood the covenant you would not say any of this.
Because Jesus died to save sinners does not mean all sinners,as not all men will be saved..... you saying...this would mean
does not make it so:thumbs: You ignore God's eternal Covenant purpose which is why you do not come to truth.
.
The elect are sinners...sinners who get saved...so Paul was correct.
I do not know if Jesus died for him so i would not lie to him , I will tell him that Jesus died for sinners and all men qualify as sinners. I let him know that all the sinners that Jesus did die for ....will come to saving faith as God the Spirit will draw all given to Jesus as He taught in Jn 6:37.
If you understood the covenant you would not say any of this.
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Jesus died to save all sinners, not just the elect.
1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
You cannot get around this scripture, because it distinguishes between those who believe and those who do not, and says Jesus is the Saviour of ALL MEN.
.
ALL MEN are sinners, if Jesus died for sinners, then he died for all men. When you say Jesus died for sinners, you redefine "sinners" to mean "the elect only".
It is you that does not come to the truth and redefines scripture.
You do not even know if you are elect if your doctrine is true. You could be self deceived. You could believe the world is flat, doesn't make it so. Likewise, you could believe you are the elect, but if Jesus did not die for you, you are out of luck if your doctrine is true.
And if you understood Limited Atonement is false, then you could know for a certainty that Jesus died for you and everyone you might witness to. For the first time you could look any man in the eyes and honestly tell him that Jesus loved him and died for his sins. But you can't do that.
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Thank you Benjamin, I too have lost all patience with determinism and its horrible implications. Although I have greater patience with those who buy it. Thank God that he is patient with us all!
Real-Life Witnessing scenario from my pastor: An unsaved man comes to him with questions about Romans 9, (God choosing to have mercy on some and not others...vessels prepared for destruction...etc). So our pastor lays it out, Election and all, and then says, if you don't repent and trust in Christ, you will be one of these who are destined for destruction.
-Honest, and yes, with paradox...but it is a paradox that many calvinists live with, because we see passages where it seems to say God chooses who he will save...But also calls on all to repent.
convicted1
Guest
convicted1
Guest
To bring this thread to the core, without Jesus, both are worthless, and deserving of hell.
If the answer to "Why do all men sin?" is "because they can." Then by your logic why do not the angels who did not fall in the original rebellion sin? Why will we not be sinning up a storm in heaven? Has God overcome the free will of angels and those dead saints because he values their continued state of sinlessness more than he values their individual free will?
You have proved you add to scripture to alter its meaning, Your views are mistaken.
Scripture says no one seeks God. So does this mean no one seeks God all the time, or no one seeks God at any time? You simply ASSUMED it means no one seeks God at any time. However, that view creates a conflict with Matthew 13:1-26 which says some "spiritually dead" men seek God some of the time, like when they receive the gospel with joy.
Your view has been demonstrated mistaken once again.
The mistaken view is the fall resulted in all men having "Total Spiritual inability," and therefore unable to seek God and trust in Christ. However the correct view is some men have "Total Spiritual Inability" i.e. the first soil of Matthew 13, but other equally "dead" fallen people have limited spiritual ability such that they can seek God and trust in Christ. These are described with soils 2, 3, and 4.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Your long rambling rant is untruthful, simple minded, nonsensical, full of unsubstantiated slander, and not worthy of rebuttal.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Your short rebuttal is useless, inflammatory, unnecessary, and worthy of rebuke.
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Calvinists play a word game and seem unable to grasp they play it.
Did you note where draw was rewritten as drag by Bronconagurski? Now if draw cannot mean metaphorically to attract with lovingkindness, but must mean compel with irresistible grace, then in John 12:32 Christ's crucification will drag all men to Christ. That would be universalism. So lets rewrite that one too. Christ's crucification will drag all [KINDS OF]men to Christ. So here "all" does not mean everything imaginable, but instead is limited by the context. However, "all" means everything imaginable in John 21:17.
So what are to make of the shoddy exegesis of Calvinism, where the same word used by the same author means different things in order to pour Calvinism into the text?
Lets go back to draw and acknowledge it means one thing literally, i.e. to drag with force like lift a bucket of water from a well, and another metaphorically, to attract with lovingkindness. Then when John uses that word, whether in John 12:32 or 6:44, it means the same metaphorical thing. Then we can look at "all" and see "all" is always limited by the context. This would apply a consistent hermeneutic to all of scripture, rather than play word games with the very inspired words of God. And when we reach a contextual meaning, it will not create a conflict with some other passage of inspired scripture.
Did you note where draw was rewritten as drag by Bronconagurski? Now if draw cannot mean metaphorically to attract with lovingkindness, but must mean compel with irresistible grace, then in John 12:32 Christ's crucification will drag all men to Christ. That would be universalism. So lets rewrite that one too. Christ's crucification will drag all [KINDS OF]men to Christ. So here "all" does not mean everything imaginable, but instead is limited by the context. However, "all" means everything imaginable in John 21:17.
So what are to make of the shoddy exegesis of Calvinism, where the same word used by the same author means different things in order to pour Calvinism into the text?
Lets go back to draw and acknowledge it means one thing literally, i.e. to drag with force like lift a bucket of water from a well, and another metaphorically, to attract with lovingkindness. Then when John uses that word, whether in John 12:32 or 6:44, it means the same metaphorical thing. Then we can look at "all" and see "all" is always limited by the context. This would apply a consistent hermeneutic to all of scripture, rather than play word games with the very inspired words of God. And when we reach a contextual meaning, it will not create a conflict with some other passage of inspired scripture.
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How can you compare two species? Using this logic we should compare ourselves to animals.
Here is the non-Cal vice Arminian rendition of Jack, a lost soul.
This rewrite changes just a few words to better align it with scripture, in my opinion.
This view is what scripture actually teaches, where we volitionally make the choice between life and death, and therefore are culpable for that choice. In a scheme where we are only able to choose death, to punish us for that non-choice is nonsensical.
Jack: Is a sinful and depraved man who is born estranged from God and in need of reconciliation with his Creator, God Almighty. He is part of the world of fallen mankind and therefore loved by God. Thus, God provides a way for Jack to be saved and sends him messengers to appeal for him to be reconciled. Jack trades in the truth for lies, by his OWN autonomous choice. He spits in the face of God's mercy and grace. He rebels against God's love and provision over and over until eventually his heart grows hardened and is given over to his defiled mind. He is lost and condemned to Hades and Gehenna for eternity.
This rewrite changes just a few words to better align it with scripture, in my opinion.
This view is what scripture actually teaches, where we volitionally make the choice between life and death, and therefore are culpable for that choice. In a scheme where we are only able to choose death, to punish us for that non-choice is nonsensical.
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