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Consider Jack and Joe - who is worse?

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Iconoclast

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DiamondLady

Christ died for ALL...scripture tells us that. Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Seems pretty clear and straightforward to me. To believe otherwise is wrong. To use fear is wrong
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DL,

Sorry ....but you are not understanding this verse..
He died once for all time...never to be repeated....it does not mean he died for ALL..
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Winman
No, I show that you believe a superstition. Jesus got his flesh from his mother Mary and could be tempted just as we are. He was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. God the Father cannot be tempted with evil (James 1:13).

Response by OldRegular
You are misrepresenting Scripture!

James 1:13. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:


How did I misrepresent scripture? the scripture says God cannot be tempted with evil. The same scripture says Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin, so this is speaking of God the Father in heaven, who is spirit and not flesh.

You left out God the Son and God the Holy Spirit!
 

Van

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What about the man that never hears the gospel? He is condemned already for his unbelief, and will receive perfect justice in Hades/Gehenna for his misdeeds. Paul addresses this question, as you probably know, in the early chapters of Romans. When we treat others differently than we treat ourselves, i.e. display a lack of integrity, we pile up wrath. These "Gentiles" had a choice to treat others with integrity, even though they were not exposed to scripture.

Thus the punishment in the non-Cal system for those never hearing the gospel is just because they chose to think and do misdeeds. In the Cal system, their punishment would be unjust because they were unable to choose to treat others with integrity.

The problem with the Cal model of man is it is simply inconsistent with scripture from beginning to end.
 

Winman

Active Member
I actually think Winman's answer is better. I have heard this answer before, but I don't buy it...it sounds like I have this perfectly sinless spirit that happens to be stuck inside a sinful body that makes me sin, as if the body is somehow evil. This kind of thinking (in more extreme forms than yours) has led people to do harmful things to their body trying to purge out the sin.

I believe our bodies are decaying, yes, and affected by sin, yes...but I think sin comes from the immaterial part of us...(because again...angels sinned without flesh).

Thank you 12 Strings, I appreciate your honest answer.

It is obvious that sin is a choice. Some angels chose to follow Satan in his rebellion, while others chose to be faithful to God.

I think it is important to remember that anyone who goes to heaven has already chosen God in this life. We have already made that decision the good angels made. In heaven we will not be subjected to continuous temptations as we are here in this world, and we will not have corruptible bodies that are weak.

The scriptures describe our infirmities, they say the flesh is weak.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

It is very important to remember that Jesus said the spirit was willing well before the disciples received the Holy Spirit. So, he is speaking of them as natural men here, men of the flesh.

Compare this to Romans 8:9 and the end of Romans 7. I happen to believe Paul was speaking of himself from the perspective of a lost man in Romans 7, he had earlier said he was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came he died. He also said he was "sold under sin". A Christian has died to sin and is no longer under it's dominion or possession. It is like ancient slaves, we once belonged to sin, but Jesus has bought us with his blood.

This story is easy for anyone to relate to, Jesus had commanded his disciples to pray with him, but they kept falling asleep. It is almost impossible to stay awake all night and pray, everyone can relate to how drowsy a person can become, or at least I can. :tongue3:

So, the body does exert a powerful force upon our wills. As a child we learn early to satisfy our bodily cravings and desires, and this is only reinforced by obeying sin throughout life. The scriptures say we have become "accustomed" to sin, that is, we have learned to sin. Old habits are hard to break.

Nevertheless, sin is shown as a choice. It is a decision of the will.

It is a pleasure to debate with you 12 Strings, you are interested in truth.
 

Winman

Active Member
You left out God the Son and God the Holy Spirit!

The scriptures absolutely say Jesus was tempted in all points as we are.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

The scriptures say Jesus "suffered being tempted". He had to fight temptation like any man. It is described as suffering.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The scriptures do not say Jesus simply got hungry or sleepy, he was tempted in ALL POINTS LIKE AS WE ARE, yet without sin.

So, James 1:13 is speaking of the Father in heaven who is spirit and cannot be tempted. Jesus came in the flesh and could be tempted. He could not have inherited this ability from his Father, but only his mother Mary.

This shows that being flesh with fleshly lusts and desires does not make one evil, it is transgressing God's commandments that makes one evil.
 
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I actually think Winman's answer is better. I have heard this answer before, but I don't buy it...it sounds like I have this perfectly sinless spirit that happens to be stuck inside a sinful body that makes me sin, as if the body is somehow evil. This kind of thinking (in more extreme forms than yours) has led people to do harmful things to their body trying to purge out the sin.


So, when God saves the soul, and resurrects it from the dead state of sin, into a lively hope, it's(soul) not perfect? The soul has been reconciled to God via the shed blood of Jesus, and placed in Christ. In Christ, and in Christ only, is the soul made perfect.

I believe our bodies are decaying, yes, and affected by sin, yes...but I think sin comes from the immaterial part of us...(because again...angels sinned without flesh).


Don't disagee with this. Our bodies will be made perfect when it's changed at God's returning to gather His children home.
 

Yeshua1

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So, you don't believe as some Calvinists that people are either elected unto salvation or chosen to be left in their hopeless totally depraved condition from birth?

Do you believe that mankind has a right to be saved, despite the fact that we are born sinners, who still keep on sinning?

again, its all boils down to what basis is the determining factor in saving us?

I chosse the sovereignity of God making correct decisions over that of man!
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
So, James 1:13 is speaking of the Father in heaven who is spirit and cannot be tempted. Jesus came in the flesh and could be tempted. He could not have inherited this ability from his Father, but only his mother Mary.

Assuming you are correct and you are not you have left out God the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, you obviously do not understand the nature of the Incarnate God Jesus Christ. There is one God Winman; if God the Father cannot be tempted how can God the Son be tempted?
 
Assuming you are correct and you are not you have left out God the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, you obviously do not understand the nature of the Incarnate God Jesus Christ. There is one God Winman; if God the Father cannot be tempted how can God the Son be tempted?

Jesus, the Son of God(God the Son) could not be tempted in His Spiritual form. When He came to earth, He made Himself a little lower than the angels, in that He tasted death for every man(Hebrews 2:9). If He didn't come in the form of a human, they could not have crucified Him in His Spiritual form. In His Spirit, He was never tempted(while in heaven with the Father), but as the Son of man(here on earth), He was.
 

Winman

Active Member
Assuming you are correct and you are not you have left out God the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, you obviously do not understand the nature of the Incarnate God Jesus Christ. There is one God Winman; if God the Father cannot be tempted how can God the Son be tempted?

What? you want me to explain the Trinity? I cannot do that at this time, perhaps never.

All I know is that Jesus was both man and God and the scriptures clearly state he was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

At the same time, the scriptures say God cannot be tempted with evil.

The scriptures also say that no man hath seen God at any time, but Jesus is God and many men clearly saw him.

The only way I can reconcile these verses is to understand that the scriptures are speaking of the Father in heaven when they say he cannot be tempted, and that no man has seen him at any time. God is a spirit, he does not have a fleshly body that can be tempted.

Nevertheless, Jesus came in the flesh and could be tempted and seen.

If you can think of a better answer I am all ears.
 

Benjamin

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Site Supporter
Thank you Benjamin, I too have lost all patience with determinism and its horrible implications.

:laugh: Is it that obvious? :eek:

Although I have greater patience with those who buy it.

Well, he asked me to just tell what the scriptures say, so I did while doing a little honest explaining along the way. ;)


Thank God that he is patient with us all!

Amen!


BTW, sorry Scan for contributing in derailing the thread, I usually try to avoid that because I do like to see thngs stay on track. I guess sometimes I just get overtaken with excitement while observing from outside the ring sometimes and I probably really should be exibiting more control than leaping the ropes and opening up a can of whoop-determinist. :smilewinkgrin:
 
:laugh: Is it that obvious? :eek:


As obvious as a carrot on a snowman's face


Well, he asked me to just tell what the scriptures say, so I did while doing a little honest explaining along the way.




Amen!


BTW, sorry Scan for contributing in derailing the thread, I usually try to avoid that because I do like to see thngs stay on track. I guess sometimes I just get overtaken with excitement while observing from outside the ring sometimes and I probably really should be exibiting more control than leaping the ropes and opening up a can of whoop-determinist. :smilewinkgrin:

I guess this is how you roll, jelly? :laugh:
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Yes, it would be nice to all hold hands and sing Kum ba ya, and correct doctrine Is important, I agree. HOWEVER, do you, for one second, think that page after page, hour after hour, post after post is changing anyone's mind HERE?

Christ died for ALL...scripture tells us that. Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Seems pretty clear and straightforward to me. To believe otherwise is wrong. To use fear is wrong.

However, it is equally wrong to waste my time in such foolishness for very long. If someone wants to spend their life in doubt and fear, not growing in Christ, not living a full life...I guess that's their choice. I prefer the peace and joy in the assurance of my salvation, based upon the promises of Christ given over and over in scripture.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
2 Chronicles 19:
9 He gave them these orders: “You must serve faithfully and wholeheartedly in the fear of the LORD. 10 In every case that comes before you from your people who live in the cities—whether bloodshed or other concerns of the law, commands, decrees or regulations—you are to warn them not to sin against the LORD; otherwise his wrath will come on you and your people. Do this, and you will not sin.

Ezekiel 31:
8 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die, ’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself. ”

Mark 16 :
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Romans 8:
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[The Greek is singular; some manuscripts me] free from the law of sin and death.

James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

James 3:1
[ Taming the Tongue ] Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.


We have been sent out for a reason, not because God just doesn't want us to remain Idle.God is working through us to bring others in. I do not believe anyone who has not heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed will be saved that is why Jesus sent us out to reach them. No one seeks God. I didn't seek God He seeked me and He used His messengers to do it. We must enter His rest and that is the way it has been from the beginning.
 
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:thumbs::thumbs:


2 Chronicles 19:
9 He gave them these orders: “You must serve faithfully and wholeheartedly in the fear of the LORD. 10 In every case that comes before you from your people who live in the cities—whether bloodshed or other concerns of the law, commands, decrees or regulations—you are to warn them not to sin against the LORD; otherwise his wrath will come on you and your people. Do this, and you will not sin.

Ezekiel 31:
8 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die, ’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself. ”

Mark 16 :
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Romans 8:
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[The Greek is singular; some manuscripts me] free from the law of sin and death.

James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

James 3:1
[ Taming the Tongue ] Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.


We have been sent out for a reason, not because God just doesn't want us to remain Idle.God is working through us to bring others in. I do not believe anyone who has not heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed will be saved that is why Jesus sent us out to reach them. No one seeks God. I didn't seek God He seeked me and He used His messengers to do it. We must enter His rest and that is the way it has been from the beginning.



:thumbs::thumbs: Amen, Brother, amen....
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Jesus, the Son of God(God the Son) could not be tempted in His Spiritual form. When He came to earth, He made Himself a little lower than the angels, in that He tasted death for every man(Hebrews 2:9). If He didn't come in the form of a human, they could not have crucified Him in His Spiritual form. In His Spirit, He was never tempted(while in heaven with the Father), but as the Son of man(here on earth), He was.

Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man.

Colossians 2:9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Now you tell me who was tempted since Scripture tells us God can not be tempted?
 

DiamondLady

New Member
DiamondLady

.
[/B]
DL,

Sorry ....but you are not understanding this verse..
He died once for all time...never to be repeated....it does not mean he died for ALL..

Nope, pretty sure I've got it exactly correct Icon. It doesn't say for all TIME it says once for ALL. Think that's about as clear as a statement can get.
 

Winman

Active Member
Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man.

Colossians 2:9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Now you tell me who was tempted since Scripture tells us God can not be tempted?

And you are absolutely ignoring scripture in Hebrews 2 and 4 that said Jesus took on the nature of the seed of Abraham (not Adam), that he was made like his brethren (the Jews) in all things, that he suffered being tempted, that he could be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, and that he was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin.

You can't simply pick and choose which scriptures you like.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Nope, pretty sure I've got it exactly correct Icon. It doesn't say for all TIME it says once for ALL. Think that's about as clear as a statement can get.

I'm going to have to side with IC this time. Depending on the translation it can say all time.
 
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