Consider Jack and Joe - who is worse?

[Skandelon]

Below are two scenarios of two lost men. Jack is a lost man in the non-Calvinistic system, while Joe is a lost man in the Calvinistic system. Which of these men is really worse? Which is clearly more deserving of Hell?

Jack: Is a sinful and depraved man who is born an enemy of God and in need of reconciliation with his Creator, God. He is genuinely loved and chosen by God. God provides a way for Jack to be saved and sends him messengers to appeal for him to be reconciled. Jack trades in the truth for lies, by his OWN independent free will. He spits in the face of God's mercy and grace. He rebells against God's love and provision over and over until eventually his heart grows hardened and is given over to his defiled mind. He is lost and condemned to hell for an eternity.

Joe: Is a sinful and totally depraved man who is born an enemy of God and in need of reconciliation with his Creator, God. He is not loved or chosen by God and so God doesn't provide a way for Jack to be saved. Jack hears the truths of the gospel but never really understands them nor can he because his innate natural condition from birth prevents it. He is born unable to willingly be reconciled to God despite God's appeal to do so. He is born virtually hardened without hope of ever been saved and is condemned to hell for an eternity.​

Given this scenario, how can anyone claim that the non-Calvinistic view has a 'higher' view of man? It appears to me that Jack is much worse than Joe. Jack is provided all he needs and still rejects God, where as Joe is doing as he was created from birth to do and never provided the means to turn to God. Jack is clearly the worse of the two and clearly the Calvinistic view is the one who gives men excuse for their rebellion and thinks too highly of unbelievers.

 

[Winman]

Well Skan, as you know I do not personally believe Jack or Joe were BORN enemies of God, but chose to sin willingly and became enemies of God, but regardless, Jack would be much worse than Joe. Jack would be a rebel and criminal, where Joe would simply be a victim.

It is like a baby born addicted to crack or heroin because his mother was a user. We justly blame the woman for her drug addiction, but no one can justly blame the baby for being addicted to drugs. A baby like this deserves compassion, not condemnation.

 

[quantumfaith]

Well, I believe Jack and Joe are both equally lost. However, I feel the world is full of Jack's while my compatriots on the other side of the theological aisle feel the world is full of Joe's. I do agree with you that "the other side" makes a false claim that the "non-cal" has a higher view of man.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, I believe Jack and Joe are both equally lost. However, I feel the world is full of Jack's while my compatriots on the other side of the theological aisle feel the world is full of Joe's. I do agree with you that "the other side" makes a false claim that the "non-cal" has a higher view of man.

well first off I do not believe in reprobates....everyone born {Jack, Jill whomever} has the same warrant to believe in Christ. I dont differentiate.

 

[Skandelon]

well first off I do not believe in reprobates....everyone born {Jack, Jill whomever} has the same warrant to believe in Christ. I dont differentiate.

So, you don't believe as some Calvinists that people are either elected unto salvation or chosen to be left in their hopeless totally depraved condition from birth?

 

[OldRegular]

Below are two scenarios of two lost men. Jack is a lost man in the non-Calvinistic system, while Joe is a lost man in the Calvinistic system. Which of these men is really worse? Which is clearly more deserving of Hell?

Jack: Is a sinful and depraved man who is born an enemy of God and in need of reconciliation with his Creator, God. He is genuinely loved and chosen by God. God provides a way for Jack to be saved and sends him messengers to appeal for him to be reconciled. Jack trades in the truth for lies, by his OWN independent free will. He spits in the face of God's mercy and grace. He rebells against God's love and provision over and over until eventually his heart grows hardened and is given over to his defiled mind. He is lost and condemned to hell for an eternity.

Joe: Is a sinful and totally depraved man who is born an enemy of God and in need of reconciliation with his Creator, God. He is not loved or chosen by God and so God doesn't provide a way for Jack to be saved. Jack hears the truths of the gospel but never really understands them nor can he because his innate natural condition from birth prevents it. He is born unable to willingly be reconciled to God despite God's appeal to do so. He is born virtually hardened without hope of ever been saved and is condemned to hell for an eternity.​

Given this scenario, how can anyone claim that the non-Calvinistic view has a 'higher' view of man? It appears to me that Jack is much worse than Joe. Jack is provided all he needs and still rejects God, where as Joe is doing as he was created from birth to do and never provided the means to turn to God. Jack is clearly the worse of the two and clearly the Calvinistic view is the one who gives men excuse for their rebellion and thinks too highly of unbelievers.

Actually the only thing one can say about anybody is that until God saved them they were by nature the children of wrath.

We can also say that those God has chosen unto salvation in Jesus Christ will in God's own time be saved. So in reality there is no Jack! He is a figment of your vivid imagination!

 

[quantumfaith]

well first off I do not believe in reprobates....everyone born {Jack, Jill whomever} has the same warrant to believe in Christ. I dont differentiate.

I knew there were some things we shared.

 

[quantumfaith]

Actually the only thing one can say about anybody is that until God saved them they were by nature the children of wrath.

True

We can also say that those God has chosen unto salvation in Jesus Christ will in God's own time be saved. So in reality there is no Jack! He is a figment of your vivid imagination!

This is where both or our imaginations in some ways part ways.

 

[Skandelon]

Actually the only thing one can say about anybody is that until God saved them they were by nature the children of wrath.

Agreed.

We can also say that those God has chosen unto salvation in Jesus Christ will in God's own time be saved. So in reality there is no Jack! He is a figment of your vivid imagination!

Question beg much?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So, you don't believe as some Calvinists that people are either elected unto salvation or chosen to be left in their hopeless totally depraved condition from birth?

Does it really matter what I believe? Do you believe in the great commission? Then if you do it is encoumbant (sic)upon every Christian believer to preach Christ crucified. The foundation of the free offering of the gospel is NOT election. Rather, it is Christs promise to save all who come to Him in faith.

I think we can agree then, that Jesus Christ is able to save all who come to God through Him in faith....Agreed!

 

[Skandelon]

Does it really matter what I believe?

Yes, and your unwillingness to reveal what you believe on this matter speaks for itself.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Agreed.


Question beg much?

I dont think OR is begging the question at all. Think about it, if th HS targets you for salvation, I dont see how you can evade Him. Personally I certainly could not, at least not for long. Gee, what is 52 years to God?

 

[Bronconagurski]

Below are two scenarios of two lost men. Jack is a lost man in the non-Calvinistic system, while Joe is a lost man in the Calvinistic system. Which of these men is really worse? Which is clearly more deserving of Hell?

Jack: Is a sinful and depraved man who is born an enemy of God and in need of reconciliation with his Creator, God. He is genuinely loved and chosen by God. God provides a way for Jack to be saved and sends him messengers to appeal for him to be reconciled. Jack trades in the truth for lies, by his OWN independent free will. He spits in the face of God's mercy and grace. He rebells against God's love and provision over and over until eventually his heart grows hardened and is given over to his defiled mind. He is lost and condemned to hell for an eternity.

Joe: Is a sinful and totally depraved man who is born an enemy of God and in need of reconciliation with his Creator, God. He is not loved or chosen by God and so God doesn't provide a way for Jack to be saved. Jack hears the truths of the gospel but never really understands them nor can he because his innate natural condition from birth prevents it. He is born unable to willingly be reconciled to God despite God's appeal to do so. He is born virtually hardened without hope of ever been saved and is condemned to hell for an eternity.​

Given this scenario, how can anyone claim that the non-Calvinistic view has a 'higher' view of man? It appears to me that Jack is much worse than Joe. Jack is provided all he needs and still rejects God, where as Joe is doing as he was created from birth to do and never provided the means to turn to God. Jack is clearly the worse of the two and clearly the Calvinistic view is the one who gives men excuse for their rebellion and thinks too highly of unbelievers.

Neither man is better than the other. There are none good, none that seeks after God.
No one comes to Christ unless the Father drags him, by the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. Those who come to Christ are the elect. I personally believe that when the gospel is preached, the Holy Spirit convicts one about Christ. I know I was under conviction for awhile before I actually got saved. I know others I have witnessed to that got under conviction as it was obvious, but in the end didn't come to Christ as they did not want to give up their sinful lifestyle. I didn't present it that way, but they knew enough to know that Christians don't normally do the things they were doing. So, if it were not for God the Father and the Holy Spirit, no one would come. That is the type of Calvinist that I am- definitely not of the tulip varitey, but I leave it to God as to why some come and some don't.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes, and your unwillingness to reveal what you believe on this matter speaks for itself.

Are you purposely trying to pick a fight? Again, answer my question....what does my human beliefs have to do with anything when we are confronted with Gods wishes? Isn't it better to both agree that what we should be doing is being obedient & serving the Lord in bringing people to Christ? sometimes I think you set up the question so as to create conflict rather than expressing the duties bound to us all as Christian believers. But there & again, only my opinion.

 

[Skandelon]

1. Don't pretend to be so innocent with your motives after your first post in this thread...

2. Am I picking a fight or wanting to debate a particular topic without getting derailed?

3. You can't dismiss 'human belief's' in ascertaining God's wishes. One may believe he wishes something other than he really does, which appropriately IS the actual point of the OP. What did God wish for the lost who never came to faith?

 

[OldRegular]

We can also say that those God has chosen unto salvation in Jesus Christ will in God's own time be saved. So in reality there is no Jack! He is a figment of your vivid imagination!

Question beg much?

Strange Skandelon. Each time I question some fallacy you post you say I am begging the question. Surely you cannot believe that God will not save His chosen ones. Do you have a Scriptural basis for that belief. I believe Scripture shows the opposite. I am certain you will claim I take the following out of context and in the interest of brevity I do. But they surely tell us that God saves all His elect except perhaps the imaginary Jack.

Mt 24:24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mt 24:31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mr 13:20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mr 13:22. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mr 13:27. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Lu 18:7. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Ro 8:33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
Col 3:12* Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

1. Don't pretend to be so innocent with your motives after your first post in this thread... WHY, DOES THAT BOTHER YOU? :laugh:

2. Am I picking a fight or wanting to debate a particular topic without getting derailed? I WOULD SAY YOUR PICKING A FIGHT...... YOU HAVE GONE DOWN THIS ROAD BEFORE.... NOW ITS GETTING A TAD BORING. RATHER, WOULDN'T YOU RATHER FIND SIMILARITIES VS ALWAYS TRYING TO POINT OUT DIFFERENCES?

3. You can't dismiss 'human belief's' in ascertaining God's wishes. WHY NOT? One may believe he wishes something other than he really does, which appropriately IS the actual point of the OP. What did God wish for the lost who never came to faith? I DONT KNOW, HAVE YOU AXED EM?

In all seriousness, the point I am endeavoring to make to you is 1) We are all sinners in need of salvation (2) It is our duty as Christians to help those in the darkness of sin to see the Light of Christ.

Now I dont give a hoot how you posture these sinners, what your sotorology is, whatever.......your clearly told by Christ to meet the sinner head on & bring them the Truth. If after that, they reject the Lord then thats their problem.......we have done our part, we have been obedient servants......then its in God's hands.

Once again Scan, we Christians do not offer Christ on the basis of the person who hears the offer is Elect----but we offer Christ exclusively on the basis that He is able to save them who come to Him.

Im done here....have a good evening.

 

[Benjamin]

----but we offer Christ exclusively on the basis that He is able to save them who come to Him.

Never understood why a Calvinist would leave the Determinist part (Doctrines of Pre-selected Grace) out when presenting the Gospel? Ashamed? Something to hide? Counter productive? Why not lay it all out on the table with sme transparency of what what you really believe of a person's ability to respond?

I'm just glad I can honestly tell a seeker that they "can" know the Truth...

 

[jbh28]

Well, I would disagree with God not loving nor providing a way, but to the root of the question...


both are sinners, yes?

Then both are equally deserving of hell. Both have sinned against a holy God and both equally deserve hell just as all men equally deserve hell. No one in and of themselves is better. all my goodness comes from Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Never understood why a Calvinist would leave the Determinist part (Doctrines of Pre-selected Grace) out when presenting the Gospel? Ashamed? Something to hide? Counter productive? Why not lay it all out on the table with sme transparency of what what you really believe of a person's ability to respond?

I'm just glad I can honestly tell a seeker that they "can" know the Truth...

You know i would not do that Benjamin....:laugh::laugh::laugh: