Considering Romans 9:16 in context

[Greektim]

Isaiah chapter 1 refutes Total Inability.

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Isaiah chapter 1 refutes Total Inability in every way and shows it to be a false, unscriptural doctrine. Even though God describes these people as sick from the head to the sole of their feet (vs. 5, 6), God says they have the ability to cease from sin, they can learn to do well, they can reason with God, they can choose to be willing and obedient, or they can refuse and rebel.

The scriptures do not describe us as a corpse without ability to hear and obey God. They do compare us to a sick or diseased person, but men retain the ability to respond to God and turn from sin and obey him. They can come to God for healing and cleansing from their sin.

And you wouldn't call that meritorious???

Sounds like God is really just sitting around waiting and hoping (but unsure) people will come to him. You'd think he would make it more obvious if he really wants all people to be saved.

 

[Van]

Hi Greektim, why would seeking the righteousness of God through faith be seen as meritorious? Is not all our righteousness as filthy rags. Clearly trusting in Christ with all our heart indicates we "will" to be saved. But does salvation depend on the man that will?
What does Romans 9:16 say? So willing does not merit salvation, so where is the boasting?

But what if God chose to credit our worthless, filthy rag faith as righteousness. And then chose us for salvation based on faith in the truth. Would that not be what scripture actually teaches? Of course it would.

 

[revmwc]

1st John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world

Christ died for all but all do not receive Him. God chose those from his foreknowledge to be conformed to Christ be the choices they would make, but Christ paid for everyones sin.

Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

God knew all our works before the beginning of the world.

 

[Van]

Hi RevMWC, lets look at what scripture actually says:

Does scripture say God chose individuals before the foundation of the world? No, you are saying, He chose us [individually] in Him before the foundation of the world. But why would God choose us individually again during our lifetime as James 2:5 and many other verse say. No, the answer is Ephesians 1:4 should be understood to say, He chose us [corporately] in Him before the foundation of the world. Therefore, God would need to put us [individually] in Christ for our redemption to include us in that corporately elected group. And that is exactly what scripture says.

Acts 15:17 In order that the rest of men may seek the LORD, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, [18]says the LORD, who makes these things known from old.
And as others have pointed out, when Abraham was told his seed would bless all nations, that foretold these things.

So your verse 18 does not appear that way in the NASB. Lets look at some translations:
18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works. (NKJV)
18 which have been known from long ago. (HCSB)

So one problem is a mistranslation, long ago being translated as eternity, when contextually it points to the time of Abraham. Secondly, we have a difference in the text, the TR versus the Critical text.

If we look at the TR text (NKJV and KJV) we see " known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world."

Lets focus in on two words, works and "from the beginning of the world".

What are the things being referred to as works? Things He has undertaken to carry out. Thus the predestined plan of redemption would be included in the idea of God's works.

Next, the translation of the word "aionos" which sometimes refers to an age, and thus points to either long ago or eternity. But contextually, Abraham lived long ago, not in eternity, so the minimalist translation would follow the NASB, long ago.

 

[percho]

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

That verse is the follow up to the last of my post and I believe it pertains to my post. Verse 17 is about what he is going to do when he is through doing what is taking place in verse 14. God is doing his works and he knows what he is doing.

 

[revmwc]

That verse is the follow up to the last of my post and I believe it pertains to my post. Verse 17 is about what he is going to do when he is through doing what is taking place in verse 14. God is doing his works and he knows what he is doing.

Since God knows what is doing all of His works and He is the same yesterday, today and forever He knew what He would do in eternity past and He knew us and what we would do. Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent and on we could go, point is His omnicient attribute means HE knows all things that would include who will, who will not, whou would and who would not receive Christ and He new when you and I would but He didn't pretermine the time and place He already knew the time and place. God had to plan nothing, He knew in eternity past when Christ would die on the cross.
1 Peter 1:1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

So who are the elect according to the foreknowledge of God?

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Skandelon]

You'd think he would make it more obvious if he really wants all people to be saved.

We don't contend that God wants to save all people. We contend that God wants to save all who believe in Christ. He wants all to come to repentance and salvation by faith, not "more obvious" means.

 

[Skandelon]

Calvinists teach that none are willing to seek God, yet Romans 9:16 says it does not depend “upon the man that wills” teaching that some men do seek God. Paul concludes chapter 9 of Romans by saying the Gentiles attained righteousness by faith but the Jews did not pursue righteousness by faith. Both groups were willing to pursue righteousness, with one group (Jews) trusting in the Law of Moses and the other group trusting in God and His Christ. The Jews pursuing the righteousness of God stumbled over the stumbling stone. The man that runs in verse 16 is the Jew who stubs his toe on the stumbling stone, he trusts in works of the Law. Paul says rather than trusting in the Law of Moses, by which no man is justified, “if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved” (Romans 10:9). Note the “if you” indicating action by the individual seeking the righteousness of God through faith in God and His Christ.

This is one of the main points that lead me away from Calvinism. Well stated :thumbs:

Clearly Paul is speaking of the Jew who runs after righteousness as if by the Law (Jews) in verse 16, just as the "same lump" of clay later refers to Israel who has some being chosen for noble purposes (like Paul, a Jew chosen for apostleship) and the rest of the Jews chosen for common use (blinded in their rebellion).

 

[Skandelon]

Your premises show lack of understanding of Calvinism.

Be specific. What "premise" lacks proper representation of every form of Calvinism and all its various nuances? Pardon the bluntness of this colloquialism but you need to put up or shut up! These generalized unsupported accusations of "not really understanding" Calvinism with all its many various forms is absurd. If something he said is misrepresentative of your brand of Calvinism then call it out and make a sound reasoned argument in a Christlike and respectful manner. Van has proven himself willing to engage and answer such replies.

Your logical fallacies are to many to go over.....

Again, you need to put up or shut up! What fallacies? Be specific. You are not going to get away with these generalized label and dismiss games anymore. Make an argument. Prove your point. Stop the personal attacks and deal with his content.

Yet you are so sure of yourself that you are right.

Has it even crossed your mind that maybe he is? If not, then you are no different than what you accuse him of being. If so, then be objective and reply to the content of his well thought out and reasoned post.

If others do not reply, you act is if you have topped them.

As if you all don't? Ignoring a sound and reasoned argument is typically done for one of three reasons:

1) Its not worthy of response because its so overwhelming stupid and fallacious: (I know this isn't the case because what he is arguing has been debated for centuries by much smarter scholars than the ones here on this board.)

2) It can't be answered because it is beyond the knowledge of the opponent's realm of pat answers and repetitive replies.

3) The opponent is too lazy to do the work.

Your hate drives your life.

Do you know Van? With the exception of a few posts on a message board you know nothing of this man, yet you speculate to his character in this harsh manner? Could you not be accused of hatred by those same standards considering the vindictive manner in which you address him and others? Look at this objectively. He stays on topic trying again and again to focus on the content of the debate. You stay on personal attacks accusing him of malicious intent while making blanket accusations without specific examples or sound argumentation to back them up. If anyone appears to be driven by hatred it might be you my brother.

 

[Iconoclast]

revmac

Thanks for supporting the view of God forekowing what choices we would make.

No...sorry. That would be fatalism. God would be the victim of fate,and have to learn something. That is not what i said. You got the to-usward right, but twisted the all. God is very willing that many perish. He does not delight in it, but It will certainly happen.

18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

God knew all our works before the beginning of the world.
Yesterday 05:03 PM

It says God knows His works.....because he decreed them.

 

[Van]

Hi Percho,

Verse 17 is about what he is going to do when he is through doing what is taking place in verse 14. God is doing his works and he knows what he is doing.

I do not think 14 and 17 are talking about different consecutive actions, I think they are taking about the exact same action. In 14, Peter said how God was taking from among the Gentiles, a people for His name. And then in 17, James supports that view from scripture, Amos 9:11-12. Then we get, verse 18 which appears to be in reference to Isaiah 45:21. Here is how this verse reads (NASB):

"21 Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me."

God announced or declared from of old, thus referring to something said to man, and thus requiring the announcement occurred after man was created. Not before creation.

Therefore, the NASB rendering of Acts 15:18 is contextually correct and the KJV and NKJV make an unwarranted extrapolation not contextually supported.
And also look at how the NKJV renders that part of Isaiah 45:21, "Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time? Here we also see God told men, putting the announcement from long ago, but not in eternity.

 

[revmwc]

So let's say God presdinated the cooperate group of belivers to be saved as some of you say. That in His foreknowledge He predestined the believers place.
Since man purpose here on earth is to prove God is a fair and just God, to prove Satans sentence is fair and thus solve the Angelic gonflict, then God select some to be saved and some not to be saved would prove satans point on appeal. God is not a fair and just God. Instead God would not have chosen anyone to be saved or lost but left it to the person be the drawing of the Holy Spirit who draws all mankind to God.
So God would have chosen those who he knew would chose for Him or He chose noone. Which way will it be, God is settling the Angelic conflict in proving to be a fair and just God through mankind. Since God is fair and just His sentence on satan is fair and just and He allows men to make the concious choice for or against Him.

 

[Van]

Hi RevMWC, let me try again to present my view.

(1) God" plan of redemption included choosing Christ to be His redeemer, and thus He chose us [corporately or as a group and not individually] in Him before the foundation of the world - the group being those who Christ would redeem. You do not choose a redeemer without a plan to redeem.

(2) Since this redemption plan was formulated before the foundation of the world, since He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, then when God saves someone individually during their lifetime, it is according to His foreknown plan. Thus in 1 Peter 1:1-2 when Peter writes: "...who were chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father by the sanctifying work of the Spirit..." he is telling us God's plan was to choose people by spiritually placing them in Christ, and in Christ those chosen are redeemed. So by placing individuals in Christ spiritually (the sanctifying work of the Spirit) God places or puts us into that corporately elected group - those whom Christ would redeem - thus He chose us (those redeemed) corporately before the foundation of the world, and individually when He put us spiritually in Christ.

The purpose of the redemption plan is to glorify God, not prove God is fair and just.

"Every one who is called by My name, and whom I have created for My glory, whom I have formed, even whom I have made." Isaiah 43:7.

When we repent from our self-centered ways and turn to God we bring glory to God, and because we are fallen, vessels of wrath, and predisposed to sin, we bring more glory to God when we repent and put our faith in God and His Christ.

Who are the ones who are called by His name? Those that have heard and learned (believed) the gospel of Christ, they are "the called, the chosen and the faithful."

 

[revmwc]

2 Peter 4:
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Matthew 25:

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

1 Corithians 4:9For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Jude 1: 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Revelation 12:
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

These all are refering to the Angelic conflict. Look especially at Rev. 12:10, they are accusing us day and night.

 

[revmwc]

Hi RevMWC, lets look at what scripture actually says:

Does scripture say God chose individuals before the foundation of the world? No, you are saying, He chose us [individually] in Him before the foundation of the world. But why would God choose us individually again during our lifetime as James 2:5 and many other verse say. No, the answer is Ephesians 1:4 should be understood to say, He chose us [corporately] in Him before the foundation of the world. Therefore, God would need to put us [individually] in Christ for our redemption to include us in that corporately elected group. And that is exactly what scripture says.

Acts 15:17 In order that the rest of men may seek the LORD, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, [18]says the LORD, who makes these things known from old.
And as others have pointed out, when Abraham was told his seed would bless all nations, that foretold these things.

So your verse 18 does not appear that way in the NASB. Lets look at some translations:
18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works. (NKJV)
18 which have been known from long ago. (HCSB)

So one problem is a mistranslation, long ago being translated as eternity, when contextually it points to the time of Abraham. Secondly, we have a difference in the text, the TR versus the Critical text.

If we look at the TR text (NKJV and KJV) we see " known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world."

Lets focus in on two words, works and "from the beginning of the world".

What are the things being referred to as works? Things He has undertaken to carry out. Thus the predestined plan of redemption would be included in the idea of God's works.

Next, the translation of the word "aionos" which sometimes refers to an age, and thus points to either long ago or eternity. But contextually, Abraham lived long ago, not in eternity, so the minimalist translation would follow the NASB, long ago.

Do you think that God knew the results of what Job was going to go through before or after he allowed Satan to do all he did?

Job 1: 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Notice it was God who offered up Job, not Satan requesting Job. Notice Satan saying sure he worships and serves you look what your doing for him. So here we have a conflict between a fallen angel and God. Satan accuses God of protecting Job from harm and if God allows him to be tested Satan says he will curse you. Do you think all this was a surprise to God or did He know Job would pass the test when He offered Him? If He knew when did he know?

Verse 22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly

Then God offered up Job yet again Job 2:
1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.


Did God just believe Job would pass or did he foreknow Job would pass the test. If He foreknew when did he know?

After Job passed the test God Blessed him richly.
Job 42: 10And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

11Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

12So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.

13He had also seven sons and three daughters.

14And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Kerenhappuch.

15And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.

16After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.

17So Job died, being old and full of days.

So again did God know Job would pass the test when He offered him to Satan or did He hope he would?
I believe God knew Job would pass the test before man was ever created and before Job was born God knew the outcome. If He knew Job and the outcome He also knew us and the decisions we would make.

 

[revmwc]

Let's also look at what Hebrews says about God , specifically about God's word.

Hebrews 4:
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Notice especially the end of verse 12, couple that with chapter 13 verse 8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Now the end of verse 12 says that the word "is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. " John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." That refers to Christ as most believers know. Since the word "is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. " And he is as 13:8 says "8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" then did He not foreknow our the thoughts and intent of our heart in eternity past and therefore predestinate us because of the foreknowledge of our heart. Otherwise He is not the same today as he was yesterday or in times past.

 

[percho]

Hi Percho,

Verse 17 is about what he is going to do when he is through doing what is taking place in verse 14. God is doing his works and he knows what he is doing.

I do not think 14 and 17 are talking about different consecutive actions, I think they are taking about the exact same action. In 14, Peter said how God was taking from among the Gentiles, a people for His name. And then in 17, James supports that view from scripture, Amos 9:11-12. Then we get, verse 18 which appears to be in reference to Isaiah 45:21. Here is how this verse reads (NASB):

"21 Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me."

God announced or declared from of old, thus referring to something said to man, and thus requiring the announcement occurred after man was created. Not before creation.

Therefore, the NASB rendering of Acts 15:18 is contextually correct and the KJV and NKJV make an unwarranted extrapolation not contextually supported.
And also look at how the NKJV renders that part of Isaiah 45:21, "Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time? Here we also see God told men, putting the announcement from long ago, but not in eternity.

Van,

Let's consider verse 16. It begins after this. After what? After he has taken out from among the gentiles a people for his name. He will then do what? I (God thru Jesus) will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; (The house of David) and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: Compare to this repaired ruin of that house.

And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. Ezek. 37:22,24

Then the residue of men seek the LORD and all the Gentiles

Notice they seek the combination of the Lord and them he had called. They are ruling with him.

The last verse of Ezek. 37
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

This is what God is speaking of in verse 18 of Acts 15: Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

I might add that whole chapter in Isaiah is awesome And shows that God is God and that it is God that saves all we have to do is hide and watch. As Moses said at the sea be ye still and see the salvation of the LORD.

 

[Van]

All the things God declared in Amos 9:11-15, and the other verses you referrenced were from long ago, but those prophets spoke God's words during the OT time, not in eternity.