Constitution Party

The suggestion that the Constitution Party (CP) wants to establish a theocracy, is utterly ridiculous.

Talk about hysterical fear-mongering!

 

And that my friend is where you and I differ. When I read that prayer is powerful in the book of James I guess I just believe it a bit more then you do at this time in our lives.

 

I would hesitate in bringing the subject of protecting the inocent against a murder into the same realm as winning an election. I would also remind you that Hitler was able to ride into power by claiming that he would restore Germany to it's former greatness stripped away after WW1. The German people on the whole bought it, and the world was forever change because what became important, even to many christians was Germany's greatness not God's.

I wish to avoid being to "heavenly-minded for any earthly good" but you drew the converstaion into the theoretical with what I would consider an extereme comparison

 

Your points are irrelevant. The fact is, we didn't just sit at home and pray for Hitler to be defeated.

I repeat, we sent a heavily-armed military to accomplish the mission.

The Founding Fathers didn't just sit around praying for a Constitutional Republic to be born, they went out and created it.

Paul Revere and the Patriots didn't just sit at home praying for the Redcoats to be defeated, they arose and went to battle.

The twelve disciples didn't sit around praying that people would accept THE WORD, they went out and actively preached and taught it.

God isn't a genie in a bottle who grants wishes at your whim. He expects you to actively do your part in this life.

A combination of prayer and PERSONAL ACTION is what gets things done in this life.

 

How very American, pull yourself up by your own boot-straps of you! What would you tell the christians in China or Saudi Arabia or India or (fill in the blank), what action should they be taking! I mean besides being tortured, thrown in jail and many times killed for following Christ. Many of you founding fathers struggled mightly with the idea of going to war against England, it wasn't something they did easily. Action, as you put it, was to them a very last restort, something to be avoided if all possible.

I see the responsibility of the believer to live like Jesus would have lived as much as possible and asking for forgiveness when that goal is not reached. To invite others to follow Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit to transform them. I don't doubt the need for action on the part of the human race, I simply question the actions we take in the name of God for our own benefit.

 

Entirely backwards. Morality is the only thing you CAN legislate. Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not murder, etc. etc. Nice slogan but entirely incorrect.

How about promoting a political platform based on Christian, Biblical principles, rather than turning the job of governing our nation over to God's enemies as you suggest?

 

And that my friend is where you and I differ. When I read that prayer is powerful in the book of James I guess I just believe it a bit more then you do at this time in our lives. </font>[/QUOTE]Here's an idea. Take the approach to everyday life using the same principles that you suggest we apply to politics.

The next time your car breaks down or something goes wrong in your house, don't call a mechanic, or plumber, or get out the wrenches. Just sit down and pray about it. Pray real hard, really spiritual. I mean REALLY spiritual.

Then, post here to let us know how it all came out.

God CAN fix your car, or your sink, or our government without you doing anything at all. But I'll bet that he won't.

And, by the way, even if a revival breaks out and millions and millions are saved...your sink will still get clogged, your car will still break, and our government will still need the attention of good Christian men.

 

Tell me how a law not to kill actually keeps someone from killing someone else? It doesn't! When the tragic happenings of Columbine happened the kids broke over 20 laws, do you think 10 more would have stopped them? I somehow doubt it. To have a law and to get people to obey that law are two different things. Prohibition a classic example in this country.

I suggested no thing, I stated that christians should make being a christian the priority, not winning elections

Why is that such and outrageous thing to do first. You seem to be mocking prayer, I am sure that is not what you intended. Read the above post where I question cetian actions in the name of God.

 

It's interesting that most assume that I am a CP activist. I am in fact a life-long Republican, and have spent much of my time supporting Republicans, with some CP activity also.

But, since I articulate Republican principles, folks assume that I am CP, since the Republicans have become Democrats and the CP has picked up the conservative, constitutionalist position formerly held by the Republicans.

Having said that, I am in fact planning to wind down my activities with the Republicans and become active with the CP, probably over the next year or so. Why continue to support a party that has jettisoned all of its core principles in favor of big-government socialism?

In direct answer to the question of what I do and what others can do (hopefully for the CP and no longer the DemoPublicans):

At election time I spend the day at the polls with signs and literature. Also hammer signs into the ground along roadsides (be sure to clean them up on Wednesday morning). A little financial support. Write letters to friends. Right now I am preparing myself for a year of increased activity, with a major election coming up. Probably will work on or head a few local committees related to the above tasks.

It's interesting, after taking time to inform friends, church acquaintences, etc., I find myself getting phone calls on Monday nights before Tuesday elections asking for advice on who to vote for. It will be a great pleasure to steer folks away from supporting the re-election of the left-wing socialist who occupies the White House.

 

Wow! What a waste of time and money to have laws and courts. If you seriously think that, with man's sinful, evil heart, there would be no more murders if there were no legal consequences, I just don't know where to start. That is an idea entirely without historical or Biblical precedent, as far as I know.

Obviously laws do not stop all crime. That is why laws contain sentences for breaking them. But, again, if you think that we can just drop laws and nothing will change...well again...the wildest argument that I have seen for a long time.

How would it work? Let's say, for example, that I wanted to rob a bank. Can I just go in, blow away the tellers, and take the money? If so, is it then mine, until someone with a better gun kills me for it? And, how about the families of the deceased...how do they obtain justice? would they just get a posse together and kill me and a few of my friends for good measure? How would taxes work? According to your idea, I guess folks would voluntarily fork up the money, since laws don't compel certain activity. Would you pay at the same level as now? I wouldn't.

I don't know how to do that. I thought that when I got saved, it was all of me. I don't know how to cut myself in parts, with 75% of me "being a Christian" and the other 25% winning elections.

But, I DO know how to take the Word of God and use it to inform the political arena so that Godly principles are upheld. THAT'S what I think "being a Christian" means, in dealing with the political realm. Ditto for business, family, church, etc.

Perhaps I overstated my case. Prayer should be a constant part of all that we do. But, I was responding to your post that, in my estimation, pitted prayer against action, as though they are mutually exclusive. I thnk that the opposite is true, that either one without the other is meaningless.

 

PennJim,

The thought that courts are irrelevent or not needed is silly and I suggested no such thing. My point was that if someone has decided to solve their problems with murder, there is little that can be done to reach them and have them stop. They act as if there is no law, even though they will suffer the penalty of their actions. More then not the courts are there to clean up the messes we get into, not really to stop the evil in the hearts of mankind.

I would agree that action without prayer is not wise, but I could easily see situations where prayer is the only action available to the believer, what then, is it meaningless because of the lack of action.

Let me state that I am not against the vote or voting, I do so whenever there is an election. I just think we have to be careful not to deceive ourselves into thinking that winning elections will make everything ok "again" (like the good ole days where really that good, they weren't!). It won't!

 

That's correct. After the election, we must continue to encourage our government officials to make good decisions in office.

 

go2church,

We may not be too far apart on all of this, I think. There aren't too many times in politics, though, where prayer is called for but action is not possible. Our actions should be backed by prayer. I reacted to your original post on this idea because alarms go off in my head when I hear someone talk about prayer in place of political action...far too often the idea that "what we need to do is pray" is a very spiritual sounding excuse to avoid the bother to do something about what is going on...I've seen it all too often.

And, I'd bet that usually those who talk the most about prayer instead of action are doing neither (not referring to you, just a general observation).

 

"How very American, pull yourself up by your own boot-straps of you! What would you tell the christians in China or Saudi Arabia or India or (fill in the blank), what action should they be taking! I mean besides being tortured, thrown in jail and many times killed for following Christ."

Yes, and tens of thousands of Christians of the "so heavenly minded they're no earthly good" school of Christianity have prayed mightily for them. But what good has it done? NONE! They still continue to be tortured and killed.

Jesus Christ told his followers to sell their coat and BUY A WEAPON. He didn't tell them to only pray for their self-defense.

Jesus Christ physically overturned the tables of the moneychangers in the temple, and drove them out with a WHIP. He didn't just sit around praying that they'd stop their activities.

In the Old Testament, Isrealite leaders led their people into war on many occasions. They didn't just sit around and do nothing but pray for their enemies to be defeated. They AROSE and went to war.

"Many of you founding fathers struggled mightly with the idea of going to war against England, it wasn't something they did easily. Action, as you put it, was to them a very last restort, something to be avoided if all possible."

THEY STILL WENT TO WAR. They didn't sit around doing nothing but praying. They invoked a COMBINATION of prayer and personal action.

"I see the responsibility of the believer to live like Jesus would have lived as much as possible and asking for forgiveness when that goal is not reached. To invite others to follow Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit to transform them. I don't doubt the need for action on the part of the human race, I simply question the actions we take in the name of God for our own benefit."

I question the non-action you take!

Millions of Christians are being persecuted around the globe, and all you suggest is sit around praying all day.

I believe in saying a heart-felt prayer first, then TAKING ACTION.

 

PennJim, I too feel that our "distance" is probably not as far as well

No, that is not all I suggest, in fact the reference I made was to those in a position where prayer is the only "weapon" those experiencing severe persecution have available to them, the innocent and defenseless. For those in positions of power, I feel have a greater resopsibility.

The USA shouldn't be protecting the Saudi Arabians because they have oil. Their treatment of women and non-Muslims is horrible and well documented and should be brought to the forefront of American dialouge, not just politically speaking either, what they are doing is wrong! As a country we continue to give China, another well documented human rights abuser, "most favored nations" status, why? Taiwan is a country "yearing to breathe free" yet President Bush has aligned with the concept that the best China is a united China, why? We have the largest global tool available, our economic standing, and yet we abuse it because we have become greedy and self-centered as a country. Hosea spoke to a people very wealthy and neglectful of the oppressed, unwilling to step up and be the nation God had intended, sound familar?

You tout the power of the election and action (whatever the heck that means) and yet our only choices were President Bush and Al Gore, are you kidding me? The best we can do in the greatest country in the world is Bush vs. Gore?
Every Sunday I stand behind my pulpit and urge people to do more as a Christian because whatever they are doing,it is not enough, including this author.

How do you change a country, you must change it at the core, the heart, and that doesn't happen at the ballot box or in Washington D.C.! You keep doing whatever it is you do, for my part I will continue to preach the full the council of God, not just the parts where Jesus tells the Apostles to get a sword, I will continue to spearhead opportunites for the church I shepherd to serve their fellow man and women, even if they don't say "yes, I'll become a follower of Jesus", I will continue to challenge injustice and the oppression of freedom and I will continue to pray that God will change hearts, not win elections.

 

Brother, you have fallen for the big lie. In 2000 I voted for a righteous candidate, Howard Phillips. He was ON THE BALLOT in most states, I think Texas included. If Christians would vote biblically instead of for the pagan idiots put up by the big parties, things would change.

Why do you insist on playing these things against each other, as though they are mutually exclusive?

Look at the teen pregnancy rate and abortion rate among professing Christians. You could evangelize the entire country, and without good government it would still be a mess.

Biblically there are spheres for the individual, the family, the church, and the civil government. ALL should be upheld, and there is no reason that one must be sacrificed in favor of the others.

 

"No, that is not all I suggest, in fact the reference I made was to those in a position where prayer is the only "weapon" those experiencing severe persecution have available to them, the innocent and defenseless. For those in positions of power, I feel have a greater resopsibility."

They wouldn't be in a helpless position if western Christians had taken political action years ago to help them! Sitting around praying isn't going to help them. WAKE UP!

"The USA shouldn't be protecting the Saudi Arabians because they have oil. Their treatment of women and non-Muslims is horrible and well documented and should be brought to the forefront of American dialouge, not just politically speaking either, what they are doing is wrong!"

No disagreement there. But sitting around all day praying about the problem isn't going to accomplish squat. The only way to stop the problem is say a heart-felt prayer, then take ACTION by contacting your elected representatives, and demand that they change the USA's current misguided policy.

The problem is people like you, who think just praying all the time is going to make things better in Washington and the world! Thank God the Founding Fathers didn't think like you. We'd all be British subjects now, with most of us living in squalor.

"As a country we continue to give China, another well documented human rights abuser, "most favored nations" status, why? Taiwan is a country "yearing to breathe free" yet President Bush has aligned with the concept that the best China is a united China, why? We have the largest global tool available, our economic standing, and yet we abuse it because we have become greedy and self-centered as a country. Hosea spoke to a people very wealthy and neglectful of the oppressed, unwilling to step up and be the nation God had intended, sound familar?"

The problems you moan about have been caused by people like you, who think praying all day is going to change the hearts and minds of the dedicated pagans who control both major parties.

The problems you describe exist because most Christians would rather just pray about them, and not get involved in putting pressure on our elected representatives.

"You tout the power of the election and action (whatever the heck that means) and yet our only choices were President Bush and Al Gore, are you kidding me? The best we can do in the greatest country in the world is Bush vs. Gore?"

Your myopia is incredible. I voted for Howard Phillips of the Constitution Party. I fully agree that we can do much better than Bush and Gore. That's why I supported a third-party candidate. I prayed, then went out and voted for a righteous man.

Most Christians who sit around praying all the time, are the ones who voted for Bush. If they had spent some time researching the candidates and issues, they would've been better informed, and would've supported a righteous candidate like Phillips.

"Every Sunday I stand behind my pulpit and urge people to do more as a Christian because whatever they are doing,it is not enough, including this author."

And being a better Christian means getting more actively involved in the political and social spheres. We can't influence non-Christians if we sit around the house all day praying.

We must say some heart-felt prayers every day, then go out and take action! You are under the fallacious notion that prayer and action are mutually exclusive. Nothing could be further from the truth.

"How do you change a country, you must change it at the core, the heart, and that doesn't happen at the ballot box or in Washington D.C.! You keep doing whatever it is you do, for my part I will continue to preach the full the council of God, not just the parts where Jesus tells the Apostles to get a sword, I will continue to spearhead opportunites for the church I shepherd to serve their fellow man and women, even if they don't say "yes, I'll become a follower of Jesus", I will continue to challenge injustice and the oppression of freedom and I will continue to pray that God will change hearts, not win elections."

You bask in self-righteousness, but your words are empty. If things continue to go as they are now, soon we won't have the right to challenge injustice and the oppression of freedom---because we will have lost our own freedom!

Prayer AND action in the political and social realms are the keys, not just prayer. The death of millions of Jews and Christians in Nazi Germany could've been averted. But most of them were of the same opinion as you regarding political and social action, so they allowed Hitler to come to power.

The rest of that tragic story is well-known, so we don't need to cover it here.

 

I guess we will not agree on what the proper "action" is and that is fine, big room with lots of elbow room. I don't feel I sit around and just pray as I am sure you are not out only banging doors for your parties nominee. This why I love politics, even when we mostly agree, we disagree!

Couple of points:
Remember I don't advocate "just praying" in reference to those with power to change the injustice, those with power have a greater responsibility to protect those without power.
The USA should act for those in China that are being run over with tanks, and yet we don't because they sew shoes real cheap!

I was in New Mexico during the election, but that is mute because you said he was listed in almost all 50 states