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Constitutional Party Candidate: Michael Peroutka '04

God has given principles and laws by which man is to live. They affect individuals, churches, and civil governments. There are two choices:

1) We can govern by God's guidelines

or

2) We can govern by someone else's

If we choose 2), we can have pretty much whatever results, including violence, immmorality, and starvation. If we choose 1), we can enjoy God's blessings.

Pretty easy choice for me. You can label it anything you choose. I do respect Dr. Kennedy, but Robertson is just a buffoon, and Falwell tends that way also.

I prefer not to argue over Theonomy, Reconstruction, etc., but if you want to see what they stand for please don't judge by guys like Robertson. Instead check some credible individuals: http://www.chalcedon.edu
 

Lil Sister

New Member
Your original premise, that what we make our decisions upon, is just. Laws must be based upon righteousness, truth & justice. The only source of that is Scripture.
However, you missed my point entirely. Theonomists/reconstructionsts (I know them well, having intimate knowledge of their beliefs first hand) expect that if they rule, everyone will have to tow their line. They will put on everyone Old Testament law, in the areas they say.
"Hooray!" Someone may say. "There goes homosexuality out the door." Ah, yes, but so does freedom to go to any church you please. So does mercy in the New Testament sense. Anyone recall the Old Testament ordinance that required parents to take their rebellious teenagers out and have the town stone them to death??! That can happen, when you have the Old Testament as the Law of the land.
People were burned at the stake at the hands of theonomists.
Baptists were hunted down and murdered at the hands of the theonomy-loving Reformed!
That is how dangerous theonomy and reconstruction can be, when it is taken to its logical end. And history shows us that it has been taken that way before: from the Reformation up until around 1800.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Following the limited government principles of the federal constitution is not theonomic. I don't think Jefferson, et al, can be considered theonomists.
 
Lil sister,

Although I wouldn't exactly classify myself as a Theonomist, I have good friends who are actually leaders in the movement. I don't know who you have been talking to, and don't doubt that you have heard what you have heard, but it is entirely contrary to what I have found.

No offense, but the fact that you lumped Robertson and Falwell in with them tells me that either A) you don't understand them or B) you "have an axe to grind", as they say. Those who I know would have nothing to do with either Falwell or Robertson.

Again, please check out the link that I posted, and this one which addresses New England Puritanism: http://www.natreformassn.org/statesman/98/nepure.html
 

Lil Sister

New Member
Jim, I've been member of churches that have been reconstructionist (many years ago), and churches that have been theonomist (within the past few years). We are currently seeing some friends come joyfully out of the covenant/theonomist error & they are marvelling in their liberty in Christ!
It is obvious you ardently believe in theonomy, so I will not change your mind. But I can pray that God will do so; and that you will come to realize that believers are not under the Law, we are under Grace.
The whole fight Paul fought on behalf of the Galatians was over that very understanding. Judaizers wanted to take the church back to the Old Covenant--Paul called them those of Hagar (the flesh). Paul promoted the spiritual children of Sarah (those born of and living in the Spirit); and boldly called the believers of Galatia away from the Law into the glorious liberty of Christ and His New Covenant Law.
There can be no reconciling the two, nor mixing the two together. Jesus warned you cannot patch the old wineskin (life in the Old Covenant)& then pour in the new wine of the Spirit of God. Jesus said those who taste the old wine first (the Old Covenant system) prefer it. He said you must get a new wineskin (the New Covenant) to have the new wine (life in the Spirit).
He also said in Luke 16:16 that the Law & the Prophets were until John. Now everyone is pressing into the Kingdom of God. Jesus continually preached that the era of the Old Covenant ended in Himself! Being completely fulfilled in Christ, it is obsolete according to Hebrews.
Thus, to put it back on the people of God, and upon the general population of a nation is nothing short of going back to Rome, enslaving the people in a false theocracy!
 

Lil Sister

New Member
PS: I enjoy the writings of many of the Puritans. I recognize many of them as true brothers & sisters in Christ. Many of them had a deep, solid relationship with Jesus Christ, and yet lived under a system they felt unable to change. So they wrote about & emphasized the personal relationship with Christ, which helped to soften the taste of metal they experienced every day under that manmade system. While not all Puritan writers expressed that kind of warmth in Christ, numerous ones did. But they were still under a Galatianist system that kept them wrongly under the Old Covenant.
 
Originally posted by Lil Sister:
Jim, I've been member of churches that have been reconstructionist (many years ago), and churches that have been theonomist (within the past few years). We are currently seeing some friends come joyfully out of the covenant/theonomist error & they are marvelling in their liberty in Christ!
It is obvious you ardently believe in theonomy, so I will not change your mind...
And I know some who are going the other direction.

Lil Sister, please read more carefully. In an above post I said that I do NOT consider myself a Theonomist. I am simply saying that I think you are mis-understanding their position. Or, maybe it depends on who you talk to, since you obviously have at least as much first-hand experience as I. But, let's not let "in-house" theological discussions keep us back from re-taking our nation's institutions and turning them back to the Christ-honoring condition that they once enjoyed (only better this time
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)

-PA Jim
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
let's not let "in-house" theological discussions keep us back from re-taking our nation's institutions and turning them back to the Christ-honoring condition that they once enjoyed
That is something that all conservative Christians, regardless of theological differences, should be in favor of.
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LadyEagle

<b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
Amen!

Who woulda ever thought a pretribber and post-tribber could agree on a Presidential candidate? LOL.
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Lil Sister

New Member
Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
And I know some who are going the other direction.
Lil Sister, please read more carefully. In an above post I said that I do NOT consider myself a Theonomist. I am simply saying that I think you are mis-understanding their position. Or, maybe it depends on who you talk to, since you obviously have at least as much first-hand experience as I. But, let's not let "in-house" theological discussions keep us back from re-taking our nation's institutions and turning them back to the Christ-honoring condition that they once enjoyed (only better this time
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)
-PA Jim [/QB]
I wish I did misunderstand their position, Jim. I've read theonomists, been with them, and in their churches; as well as have these friends who are now enjoying their liberty from this harsh belief system. This is the major strain of theonomy, per the teaching of Greg Bahnson (who dubbed it that), and as history bears record of the reformed & Puritans who acted out their theological convictions.
You cannot and must not deny the horrific 200 year history for the life of Baptists (and others) under theonomic government!! To be so willfully ignorant of this is to be unfaithful to Christ & His truth. Have you read Martyr's Mirrors ? Have you read The Price of Soul Liberty ? You must, before you make an ignorant stand on behalf of theonomic government.
Clearly the Anabaptists understood Biblical truth about a Christian's place in society:
We are pilgrims and strangers on the earth. We are not here to "take over the world for Christ" by fleshly (ie: political) means.
Jesus said that His kingdom is not of this world, else His servants would fight! The weapons of our warfare are spiritual , not carnal , we are told in Corinthians.
Our task is to proclaim the Gospel , intercede for our leaders and the lost, and do good works which glorify God in the eyes of the lost (such as ministering food & medical supplies in Jesus' name as opportunities to bring the Gospel to people). It is also to raise godly children in a crooked and perverse world, and show the world what a family is, according to Scripture. As the Church of Jesus Christ, our love is to be a testimony to the world that we are His. But that love is not namby-pamby, with a mindless-sheep mentality. In love we are to provoke one another to love & good works (Heb. 10:24,25), and to keep sharp doctrinally (Jude 3).
This worlds' political systems are just that--this worlds! If a Christian feels compelled to run for office, then he should. But not in the sense to "take back the United States." Rather, it should be as "salt and light."
It is true that the US was established by many true, Bible-believing Christians. But it was established also by deists, and upon Greek principles (the "Classic Education" so many seek after today; which has a large amount of Greek pagan thought included). Those Greek principles affected the Christianity of the founding fathers; allowing them to freely imprison and even put to death Baptists & others, until the Bill of Rights enabled us to live freely in the US. Do your homework--too many believers in this country believe Americanized Christianity. Our faith should be a Biblical faith, not a culturalized one. Christians should be children of God through Christ first, citizens second; not the other way around. Our faith should be the same as brethren who are in 3rd world countries; where they have no freedoms, yet are that country's best citizens because they faithfully follow Christ. They make the difference in their country because they are true examples of Christ & His Word. They are not hated because they are trying to grab political power--but because they stand for Christ! (Read the Voice of the Martyrs magazine for a few months, to see the difference.)
Am I saying Baptists/Christians shouldn't vote or hold public office? I'm not saying we shouldn't, but if we do, it should be with integrity, for men of Biblically Christian standing, if possible, and men who will best enable us (as it says in 1 Tim. 2) to live peaceable lives.
We are not here to establish a kingdom for ourselves. The kingdom of God is within you, Jesus taught! Someday when He returns & establishes His physical kingdom on earth, every knee will bow & tongue confess He is Lord. Until then we are in a battle--to be fought by the Word of God, and prayer, and loving good works.
 
Lil Sister, I won't drag this discussion out any longer unless you want to. I will just finish my party by commenting that you seem to be saying that Christians should be concerned about almost all areas of life except leadership in politics and government. I can't slice my life apart like that.
 

Lil Sister

New Member
Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
...you seem to be saying that Christians should be concerned about almost all areas of life except leadership in politics and government. I can't slice my life apart like that.
No, Jim; I don't believe that. I just believe that Christians aren't called to take over the world in a political way, because we're "pilgrims and strangers" as Peter said.
When we try to do things the world's way (like the Moral Majority, Christian Coalition and other modern reconstructionist/theonomic movements, as well as what the historical record shows) then we mess everything up, and dishonor the name of Christ! Why? Because we aren't doing what we are here for, which is the Father's business--being Ambassadors for Christ.
Our goals here on earth are to worship the Lord Jesus Christ (through life, through the Word, through prayer, etc.) & evangelize the lost...political strong-arming doesn't do either job.
Recent & older history shows that when the Church gets sidetracked from the essentials, she loses her edge, grows lukewarm and goes into chastisement. This is not what I want, is it what you want?
This is where the Church is today, and we desperately need a revival and reformation. That won't come through politics, either!
 

Lil Sister

New Member
PS: Jim, how come you wont be honest enough to address what I've said? I've made strong (but not unloving or ungodly) statements in my stand against theonomy and reconstructionism. (My concern is valid, because I don't know enough about this Peroutka person to vote for him.) Instead of honestly looking at the presentation of both Scripture and historic facts I've given you, you continually side-step the issues and whine, accuse and fuss. "If you don't like the heat, get out the kitchen!"
Rather, I challenge you to get into the "heat" of the Scripture,and the testimony of history (which tells the truth about theonomy) and allow your convictions to be formed by them on this subject, instead of your preferences.
 
Lil Sister,

Looking over my posts on this thread, I cannot find any place whare I "whined" or "fussed".

As to "being honest enough to address what you've said"...I did say that I prefer not to get into a long discussion over Theonomy or Reconstructionism. That's because 1) I don't have ten hours a day to spend on the BB and 2) as Ken has pointed out, it's not really the issue if we simply realize that our government (or ANY government) should follow the principles given by God. The alternative is to say that they SHOULDN'T follow them...you wouldn't support that, I hope.

Since you seemed to be willing to spend more time on the issue that I had, I posted a few links for you to check out. Did you study them? I don't agree with everything on them, but I think you will find things there that are counter to the accusations that you have made against certain groups. I don't know and cannot be concerned about the particular church in which you had your experience, I'm just PA Jim here in PA.

I don't like to make real long posts, but since you seem interested in a VERY complex topic I assume that you don't mind spending a little time. So, I hope that IQ4truth doesn't mind if I paste from a very excellent post that he made elsewhere on the BB:


Here's a common misconception, that only the New Testament means anything - "Just gimme the red-letter version, brother!" WRONG.

Did you know that the entire Bible is the Word of Jesus Christ? Really. It's true.

Anything that is not undone of the Old Testament in the New Testament still holds true!

Now, getting back to Galatians 3:29 - has anyone even read Click Here for God Mandates that Christians Be Involved in Government!

Well, since several posters haven't gone there yet, I'll just have to past the whole thing here.

Should Christians/Jews Vote and Be Political???

Raising up Elders in the Gates - Some Gems!
Adapted from Randall Terry's Audio Seminar - Taking Back The Gates!

Dear Friend,

November 5th, Election Day, came and went, but most pulpits across the U.S.A. were Dead silent about election day. Is this fact Biblically correct or politically correct?

Politically (secular politics) correct.

When the IRS controls the tongue of a pastor, is this the will of God or of Satan?

Let me put it this way. When man, not God, holds the tongue of a pastor, is it right?

As you know from the Oct. 3 Edition of IQ*, I just finished listening to such a Fantastic Bible-based audio seminar, that I'm gushing to expand on just a few beautiful gems of it that I shared with you!

The Vision of "Taking Back The Gates"

"We want to have righteous men and women be the leaders in every power base in the world." Why?

Proverbs 29: 2 When the righteous thrive, the people rejoice; when the wicked rule, the people groan.

"The church, politics, the judiciary, economics, education, medicine, the media, the press, all have leaders. Leaders lead according to their ethics. Their leadership is an out working of their ethical allegiance. Our desire is to have the righteous leading and ruling in the affairs of men. Is that a Biblical goal?"

Raising Up Elders In The Gates

Genesis 22:17 that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is upon the seashore. And thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies.

Genesis 24:60 And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of ten thousands, and let thy seed possess the gate of those that hate them.

Who is the seed of Abraham, according to the New Testament?

Galatians 3:29 And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

What do the previous verses of Genesis mean?

What value is it to possess God's enemy's gate?

The gate is the seat of authority for:

1. Civil Leadership (what we today call "political leadership")

2. Judgment (or Judiciary)

3. Commerce

The scripture below is from the American Standard Version, the preference of my pastor, Pastor Randy, whose no-holds-barred, black and white, no watered-down sermons brought us to our church.

1. Civil Leadership

Genesis 19:1 And the two angels came to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot saw them, and rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face to the earth;

Genesis 34:20 And Hamor and Shechem his son came unto the gate of their city, and communed with the men of their city, saying, ....

Deuteronomy 16:18 Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which Jehovah thy God giveth thee, according to thy tribes; and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment.

2 Samuel 15:1-4
1 And it came to pass after this, that Absalom prepared him a chariot and horses, and fifty men to run before him.
2 And Absalom rose up early, and stood beside the way of the gate: and it was so, that, when any man had a suit which should come to the king for judgment, then Absalom called unto him, and said, Of what city art thou? And he said, Thy servant is of one of the tribes of Israel.
3 And Absalom said unto him, See, thy matters are good and right; but there is no man deputed of the king to hear thee.
4 Absalom said moreover, Oh that I were made judge in the land, that every man who hath any suit or cause might come unto me, and I would do him justice!

1 Kings 22:10 Now the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat the king of Judah were sitting each on his throne, arrayed in their robes, in an open place at the entrance of the gate of Samaria; and all the prophets were prophesying before them.

For further study on Civil Leadership, see: 2 Samuel 19:1-8; 2 Kings 11:6-19; Exodus 20:10; and Proverbs 31:23

2. Judgment (or Judiciary)

Exodus 32:26 then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Whoso is on Jehovah's side, let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.

Deuteronomy 17:5 then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, who hath done this evil thing, unto thy gates, even the man or the woman; and thou shalt stone them to death with stones.

Deuteronomy 21:19 then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; ....

Deuteronomy 21:15 If a man have two wives, the one beloved, and the other hated, and they have borne him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the first-born son be hers that was hated;

For further study on Judicial Leadership, see: Deuteronomy 17:8-14 and Joshua Chapter 20.

3. Commerce

Genesis 23:10 Now Ephron was sitting in the midst of the children of Heth. And Ephron the Hittite answered Abraham in the audience of the children of Heth, even of all that went in at the gate of his city, saying, ....

Genesis 23:17,18
17 So the field of Ephron, which was in Machpelah, which was before Mamre, the field, and the cave which was therein, and all the trees that were in the field, that were in all the border thereof round about, were made sure
18 unto Abraham for a possession in the presence of the children of Heth, before all that went in at the gate of his city.

Ruth 4:1-2, 10-11
1 Now Boaz went up to the gate, and sat him down there: and, behold, the near kinsman of whom Boaz spake came by; unto whom he said, Ho, such a one! turn aside, sit down here. And he turned aside, and sat down.
2 And he took ten men of the elders of the city, and said, Sit ye down here. And they sat down.
10 Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye are witnesses this day.
11 And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. Jehovah make the woman that is come into thy house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephrathah, and be famous in Bethlehem:

2 Kings 7:1 And Elisha said, Hear ye the word of Jehovah: thus saith Jehovah, To-morrow about this time shall a measure of fine flour be sold for a shekel, and two measures of barley for a shekel, in the gate of Samaria.

When was the last time you heard an altar call for someone to be in government, the judiciary, or business?

Why then, do the wicked control the gates today?

1. A judgment from Heaven - those God loves He chastens.

Deuteronomy 28:55,57
55 so that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat, because he hath nothing left him, in the siege and in the distress wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in all thy gates.
57 and toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children whom she shall bear; for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly, in the siege and in the distress wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.

2. Cowardice in Christian leadership (possessing enemies' gate requires conflict, confrontation, conquest)

Judges 5:8 They chose new gods; Then was war in the gates: Was there a shield or spear seen Among forty thousand in Israel?

Now consider these words of Jesus:

Matthew 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Does this Holy scripture take on new meaning for you now, knowing that "scripture interprets scripture?"

Proverbs 14:19 The evil bow down before the good; And the wicked, at the gates of the righteous.

He who controls the gate controls the city, controls the nation.

Which do we want? To be trampled under the foot by God's enemies, or to possess the gates of God's enemies?

OTHERWISE, If we abandon the Biblical mandate to serve and lead in the gate, we will be conquered, ruled, and enslaved.

Who did God use to bring about Revival and Reformation, in the Bible, to Take Back The Gates?


Debra - A Judge (Judicial)
Gideon - A Judge (Judicial)
Samuel - A Judge (Judicial and Prophet)
David - A King (Political and Prophet)
Hezekiah - A King (Political)
Josiah - A King (Political)
Uziah - A King (Political)

Who did God use to bring about Revival and Reformation, in the USA, to Take Back The Gates?

George Washington:


quote:
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"MONDAY EVENING....Most Gracious Lord God, from whom proceedeth every good and perfect gift, I offer to Thy Divine Majesty my unfeigned praise and thanksgiving for all Thy mercies towards me. Thou mad'st me at first and hast ever since sustained the work of Thy own hand; Thou gav'st Thy Son to die for me; and hast given me assurance of salvation, upon my repentance and sincerely endeavoring to conform my life to His holy precepts and example.

Thou art pleased to lengthen out to me the time of repentance and to move me to it by Thy Spirit and by Thy Word, by Thy mercies, and my own unworthiness, I do appear before Thee at this time; I have sinned and done very wickedly, be merciful to me, O God, and pardon me for Jesus Christ sake; instruct me in the particulars of my duty, and suffer me not to be tempted above what Thou givest me strength to bear. Take care, I pray Thee of my affairs and more and more direct me in Thy truth, defend me from my enemies, especially my spiritual ones.

Suffer me not to be drawn from Thee, by the blandishments of the world, carnal desires, the cunning of the devil, or deceitfulness of sin. Work in me Thy good will and pleasure, and discharge my mind from all things that are displeasing to Thee, of all ill will and discontent, wrath and bitterness, pride & vain conceit of myself, and render me charitable, pure, holy, patient and heavenly minded. Be with me at the hour of death; dispose me for it, and deliver me from the slavish fear of it, and make me willing and fit to die whenever Thou shalt call me hence.

Bless our rulers in church and state. Bless O Lord the whole race of mankind, and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy Son Jesus Christ. Pity the sick, the poor, the weak, the needy, the widows and fatherless, and all that morn or are broken in heart, and be merciful to them according to their several necessities. Bless my friends and grant me grace to forgive my enemies as heartily as I desire forgiveness of Thee my heavenly Father. I beseech Thee to defend me this night from all evil, and do more for me than I can think or ask, for Jesus Christ sake, in whose most holy Name & Words, I continue to pray, Our Father, Who art in Heaven...."


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Click Here for God Mandates that Christians Be Involved in Government!
From: http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=001188;p=3

-PA Jim
 

Lil Sister

New Member
I do not argue that Christians can be involved in their government. I argue that it is not through theonomy! You consistently ignore what I truly say, because I hit the subject right on the head.
I rejoce that George Washington was a believer. I look forward to meeting him in heaven. I've known of his faith since I researched the man some 20 years ago in college.
Nevertheless, his faulty understanding of government (both church & state) included the oppression of blacks, women, and all who were not of his ecclesiastic ilk. Therefore, he felt free to keep from them the same rights accorded to Presbyterians, Episcopalians, and land-holding white men.
As far as the Old Testament Scriptures, yea and Amen! But those were commands under the Old Covenant ; a covenant Jesus said is obsolete and passed away! The commands for war and rulership to the people of God were for the land of Israel-- not the Church of Jesus Christ! This is a huge difference you do not care to see.
Study the New Covenant--Matthew 5-7; Romans 2-4; Galatians 2-5; 1 Cor. 13; Hebrews 8-10; 1 Peter 2 and so on defines it well. These Scriptures clearly explain that we are pilgrims and strangers on this earth. We are here under a New Covenant--not to be the American Israel--but to be Ambassadors for Christ from every tribe and nation.
You see, American theonomy is Americanized Christianity. It insists that America is the new Israel, the new chosen people of God. The Scriptures teach otherwise.
History, as I've repeatedly shown, and you have repeatedly ignored, gives proof that a country under theonomic government is oppressive to all who do not hail it's regime! Countless Baptists died at the hands of Zwingli, the Puritans, and others who embraced theonomy.
Please consider the implications of the New Covenant upon spiritual citizenship; as opposed to earthly citizenship. If the separation is mantained, then there is proper understanding of our place in society.
 
Lil Sister,

I have tried to tell you that you don't understand what the Theonomists teach. You have proved it by your statement that they believe that Americal is the new Israel. Of course you will find indivieuals wearing any given label who belieev practically anything, but as a whole, Theonomists believe that the Church, not America, is the "new Israel. I don't want to make a big deal out of this, as I have repeatedly stated, but you can't seem to let it rest. Disagree if you want, I'm not saying that I agree either; but don't mis-represent what they teach.

You can't throw out the entire Old Testament. Based on what you are saying, the Ten Commandments are obsolete. Is murder or adultery wrong just based on your opinion or mine? Or, are they wrong because God says so, and therefore God's Word should inform our laws and institutions?
 
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