Context or Pretext in Interpreting Scripture?

[DHK]

Agreed. The abomination of desecration had been brought up earlier,

and I was commenting on the tangent.

Can you believe it? The conversation was wandering!:laugh:

Not wandering.

"He that endureth to the end shall be saved."
The verse is found in both places (Mat.10 and in Mat.24).
Since both verses are used to teach a false doctrine then find out the context and the meaning of both in their proper context. In order to do that in Mat.24 you need to find out what "the abomination of desolation" is. You haven't done that. What is "the abomination of desolation"? Is it the event that happened when Titus conquered Jerusalem? I doubt it. But you can answer that question for yourself. Look at the rest of the passage and ask yourself if those things happened at that time.

Matthew 24:13-27 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It is not talking about the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem by Titus. In fact the abomination of desolation is not talking of the destruction of a Temple at all. Titus may have desecrated the Temple. But he went on to destroy it. That is not what the "abomination of desolation" refers to it. It refers to a time when the Temple is desecrated, but not destroyed. When will that be? When does it take place?

 

[Sgt. Fury]

We both agree that the Temple was destroyed in AD 70, and that Titus offered a pig on the altar, thus desecrating it. Yet you are insisting that this event was not the abomination of desecration, since that "... refers to a time when the Temple is desecrated, but not destroyed."

Since the Temple has been destroyed, how will it be desecrated further than it was by Titus prior to its' destruction?

 

[DHK]

We both agree that the Temple was destroyed in AD 70, and that Titus offered a pig on the altar, thus desecrating it. Yet you are insisting that this event was not the abomination of desecration, since that "... refers to a time when the Temple is desecrated, but not destroyed."

Since the Temple has been destroyed, how will it be desecrated further than it was by Titus prior to its' destruction?

That was the Temple that Herod built. There have been many Temples. What is to say that it was that Temple that Jesus was referring to, He being omniscient. There will be another Temple. Another Temple will be built by the Jews. The Antichrist, in the future, will make a pact with Jews. And then he will break that pact and desecrate the Temple. Again, if you look at the context which I put in that post there, you have to ask yourself: Have all of these things taken place? The answer is an obvious no. They are all future events. None of these events happened when Titus destroyed Jerusalem. This is not a picture of that time.

 

[Sgt. Fury]

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The abomination of desolation would happen within the lifetime of those to whom Jesus was speaking. It either did, or it didn't.

If it did, then your conclusion is without merit, demanded only by the false doctrine of premillenialism.

If it didn't, then either Jesus lied, or there are some very old apostles running around somewhere.

Which will it be?

 

[DHK]

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The abomination of desolation would happen within the lifetime of those to whom Jesus was speaking. It either did, or it didn't.

If it did, then your conclusion is without merit, demanded only by the false doctrine of premillenialism.

If it didn't, then either Jesus lied, or there are some very old apostles running around somewhere.

Which will it be?

Throughout the chapter it refers to the second coming. Has it happened yet?

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:32-36 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

So tell me, when did Christ come again? He did say it would be in that generation.
Is something wrong with your hermeneutic?

 

[Sgt. Fury]

Let's look at the text again for clarity.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

When Jesus tells the disciples that the Temple would be destroyed, they asked two questions, each indicated by a question mark.

1. when shall these things be?

2. what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Jesus goes on to answer both questions, but He begins His answers with a warning: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you."

Okay, just to get it out in the open, I think you have been deceived, and you probably think I have been deceived. I don't think we're calling each other stupid or anything, we simply suspect each other of being misinformed, yet sincere in our beliefs. I think we can do that without being ugly toward one another. (So far so good, but you know how these things go sometimes...)

That said, we find in verses 24:5-35 several references to "those days". I believe Jesus refers in this section of Scripture to the days leading up to, completing, and following the destruction of the Temple by Titus in AD 70.

I'm a bit pressed for time right now, but later on I'd like to go through those verses a bit.

Anyway, in 24:36, Jesus changes over to "that day", which I believe to refer to the 2nd coming and the end of the world.

That's my view in brief of the verses at hand. Two questions, two answers. Like I said, I'd like to look at them closer later on, but I've got to run for now.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

To my understanding of Matthew chapter 24.

There are three parts in this chapter. This chapter covers, not just for Jews only.

Before we go deep into this chapter. First, when the disciples were with Jesus, shew him around the buildings of the temple. Christ told them, this building of the temple(Herod's temple), itself will be destroyed down, not one stone stand remain left - Matt. 24:2. They were shocked hear of Christ's predict. So, they asked him for privately talking. Understand these are the disciples of Christ. Of course, they were all Jews, but this chapter is not just for given to the Jews Messianic only as what dispensationalists limited this group for "Jews only".

Disciple means follower. Aren't we as follower of Christ?

During Christ's time, mostly people living in Jerusalem, were Jews.

Does this sermon of Mt. Olivet dismisses or excluded Gentiles Christians out?

Also, pretribs saying, Matthew chapter 24 is for Jews only, not apply to Church. Because the Church was not yet birth till Pentacost Day.

Let me discuss on three parts of Matthew 24.

First Part: Vs. 4-14 covers from Early Church history, throughout all centuries of Church history till the end.

Notice verse 14 says, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the END COME."

Right now, we are preaching the gospel of the kingdom to the world, the gospel is not limited for Jews only, also, it is for everyone of all nations, it means that, it is for both Jews and Gentiles. God's will that He wants all people to be saved. The gospel seems almost reach all nations already so far right now, I guess soo. Then, the END come. What the 'end' speaks of? It speaks of the end of the age. Right now, we are in this present age. This present age have been last for almost 2000 years. This present age(world) will be ends as when Christ comes at second advent.

In Matthew 28:18-20 telling us, we are commanded go and preach to every person, baptized them, and Christ tells, He promises us, that, He is always with us TILL THE END OF THE WORLD.

Does, he saying, "till the end of the church age."?

No.

Bible teaches us, there are only two ages, not three or four ages according as what dispensationalism teaching. Premillennial depends on dispensationalism so heavily.

Later in March, I will make a new topic on 'two ages' with scriptures.

Now, I would like to discuss on Matt. 24:13. Before we get arreive verse 13. Earlier, as Christ speaks of context in Matt. 24:12 - "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."

This is speak of falling away as apostasy.

Matt. 24:13 have do nothing with supposed future so called, 'seven year of Tribulation Period', that verse 13 will be happen in that period. It is already happened right now within Church history. There were many apostasies within Church in the past, even today too. Many Christians already depart from the Lord, love the world, their wicked are increasing worsen.

That why, Christ commands us that, we ought to be endure till the end. Two ways that we must endure to- second coming, or till our death.

If you think this verse is for Jews only.

Well, you are wrong.

In 1 Peter 1:13 tells us very clear: "Where gird up the lions of your mind, be sober, and hope to the END for the grace that is to be broight unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Peter tells us that, we ought hold fast our hope and be endure till the end, that would be at the revelation of Jesus Christ. "Revelation of Jesus Christ" is speak of second coming.

No doubt, Peter reminded of Christ's lecture of Matthew chapter 24, when he was young. So, no doubt, the epistle of Peter was written to the Church, both Jews and Gentiles Christians. That we ought to be hold our hope till the end. Same with Hebrews 3:6 - "IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

Matthew 24:4-14 is general speaking toward us as Christians throughout centuies of Church history of this present age.

Matt. 24:13 have do with us, it apply to us that we must be endure.

What about Revelation 2:10 - "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tired; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." ?

This is speak of facing trials, persecutions, and tribulations. If we endure them till our death, then we shall receive reward.

Same with Matthew 24:9-10 talking about persecutions. Early Church were already faced persecutions, and they did endured thier life till death. Same as we should do the same thing as what they done.

Matt. 24:9-13 is very clear apply to us as Christians, not just for (lost) Jews only.

Part Two: - Matthew 24:15-22 focus on Jerusalem and Christians. We know that, there were most of them were Jews living in Jerusalem during in that year 70 A.D. But, this passage doesn't mean that Christians are being excluded from this scene. This passage is also given warning to Dispciples, some of them who are still alive and living in Jerusalem. For me, I do BELIEVE Apostle Peter was still live in Jerusalem in year 70 A.D. Some saying Peter was martyred up crucified up-down side almost same year as Paul was martyred.

I do believe that here must be one of the 12 discples who were with Christ, and did heard his sermons of Matthew 25:15-22, must be still alive and are in Jerusalem, did saw Roman army round around Jerusalem. I am sure that one of the disciples told Christians and Jews, they must flee away from Jerusalem, because Romans will burn Jerusalem down. They did kept Christ's commands.

I better stop now.

I will continue discuss on Part three- Matthew 24:23-31, also, I want to discuss throughout whole chapter 24 too next mine post.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[peterotto]

Thanks postTrib for your contribution.
I haven't read your entire post, but I will.

I do have an issues with Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the END COME."

You said this about Matthew 24:14

The gospel seems almost reach all nations already so far right now[\Quote]

I believed the gospel did reach "All the world" because the Bible tells me so. See Colossians
Colossians 1:6 "All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing"

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I agree with Colossians 1:6. That was written in year around 50's A.D. During in that period, they have no idea what over big sea(ocean) west of Europe. The gospel was already reached over as far to Great Britian, and also Asia too. Traditionally saying that Philip, the evangelist did went to Asia(not around seven churches of Asia of Revelation 2-3, it is present Turkey). I mean far east like China. I believ, no doubt, the gospel was already reached Great Britian and China in that period, so I concern that Paul believed the gospel was reached all nations("Old World") in his time.

Still the gospel was not yet reach Indians of North America and South America in that period.

Now, we have technology stuffs like emails, text messages, computers, phones, cell phones, T.V. and many things can easily reach over all nations today. So, I believe that the gospel seems did reach almost all nations already.

BUT, yet, lot of people out in the world are not yet hear the gospel, even, also, millions of deaf people from over the world still not hear the gospel. We are long way to go.

So, the end is not yet, we still have job to spreading gospel over the world, we are long way to go.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DHK]

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

This is the question that Jesus was answering.
Have you seen the end of the world yet, Deafposttrib?

If not, then the passage: "He that endures to the end shall be saved," must be referring to a time before that. That much is obvious.

 

[peterotto]

I mean far east like China. ........I believe that the gospel seems did reach almost all nations already......BUT, yet, lot of people out in the world are not yet hear the gospel, even, also, millions of deaf people from over the world still not hear the gospel. We are long way to go.

This is where we differ. The word "world" in Matt 24 and Col 1 is not an accurate translation of the Greek word used. In Matt 24 and Col 1 "world" meant the inhabitated land. Luke 2:1 "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed." Again, "all the world" did not mean the entire globe, i.e. South America, Far East....., but instead meant the inhabited land.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

peterotto,

I agree.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DHK]

peterotto,

I agree.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Your are still ignoring context.
Have the things that Christ mentioned in Mat.24 happened yet?

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

It is quite evident that there was not a complete fulfillment of this prophecy in 70 A.D., but only a partial fulfillment. This holds true for many prophecies.

For example 700 years before Christ was born Isaiah prophesied before Ahaz that a virgin would conceive and bring forth a son. The prophecy was in some way partially fulfilled in the time of Ahaz. But its complete fulfillment came in the time of Christ. Most of the OT prophecies have a double fulfillment: near and far, partial and complete. This one is no different. Its complete fulfillment will be when Christ comes again. It is quite evident by the Scripture posted above that these "signs" have not taken place. These events have not taken place. They are yet to come. The complete fulfillment of this passage is yet to come.

 

[Sgt. Fury]

Many of the things spoken in Matt 24 were figurative and will not have a literal fulfillment. Let's take a look at the first section (24:5-35).

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Even in my lifetime (41 years) I can recall those who have claimed to be Christ and deceived many (Charles Manson, Jim Jones, the Branch Davidian dude). Certainly the years immediately following Jesus' ascension would have been marked by men claiming to be a returned Christ. The Thessalonians were troubled by those who claimed that the day of Christ was at hand (2 Thes 2), for example.

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Very few periods in history have lacked wars and rumours of wars. Such were not to trouble the disciples. It is still the first question being adressed here, so I'd say the end mentioned is the end of the Temple.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The book of Acts and several of the epistles give examples of false prophets and the false teachings they were spreading in the church. Demas is one whose love grew cold, and as mentioned earlier, the gospel was preached throughout the known world (Col 1:6, Rom 16:26).

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

These and the following verses were heeded by Christians in Jerusalem who fled the city before the Romans laid siege to it. Again, I believe this section speaks of events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The conditions in Jerusalem under siege and conquest would have been brutal. Disease and starvation would have had the inhabitants fighting for survival. 2 Kings 6:26-30 sheds light on the desperate conditions in a city under siege.

With 24:22, had Titus not returned to wherever he came from, there would have been no survivors.

In 24:23-26 are repeated warnings against being lured by false Christs.

24:27 makes it clear that there will be no mistaking the 2nd Coming. It will not be secret nor hidden as the false Christs would be.

Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

I only recently heard a reasonable explanation of this verse. It never made any sense to me, and it seemed out of place. It's figurative language. In the absence of established leadership (religious or government), something will rush to fill the void. Often those who do so are predatory and parasitic, only seeking their own self interest. Such would be the false Christs.

24:29-30 contains more figurative language, which does not require literal fulfillment.

24:31 is the spread of the gospel to all the world.

24:34 ascertains the time frame under discussion as within the lifetime of that generation, ruling out any "end-times" ideas.

 

[DHK]

Sgt. Fury,
In summary of your post:
1. You dismiss the first few verses realizing that between 29 A.D. and 70 A.D. there were not a great deal of wars, rumors of wars, nations rising against nations, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, etc. They just did not happen. You can't fit them in that time period. History doesn't record them.

2. You downplay those events that you believe relate to the destruction of the Temple by Titus.

3. You dismiss the Scripture such as verses 29 and 30 that relate to the second coming of Christ even though there are over 300 such promises of his coming in the Bible. Tell me: Do you believe in the Second Coming? Is Christ coming again? Why then do you dismiss it as just figurative and not literal? You sound like a modernist denying one of the very basic tenets of Christianity--the Second Coming of Christ. That can be explained some other way; "It does not require a literal fulfillment," you say. Amazing!

 

[Sgt. Fury]

I certainly do believe in the 2nd Coming. I just don't believe Mt 24:29-30 is talking about it.

The Jews had repeatedly asked for a sign from Jesus to prove Who He claimed to be. The miracles, His refutation and confounding of the Jewish leaders, even His resurrection did not convince Israel to accept Him as the Messiah. The destruction of Jerualsem at the hands of Titus would be a sign of Jesus as their Judge for their rejection of Him and their persecution of His saints.

Again, the statement that all of these things would happen in that generation makes clear that vv 29-30 do not speak of the 2nd Coming of Christ.

Now, in 24:36, Jesus switches from speaking of "those days", to "that day".

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

The first question concerning the destruction of the Temple being answered, Jesus adresses the question about His return and the end of the world.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

In short, there will be no signs indicating that the end of the world is close, only the warning from faithful preachers that Judgment is coming, and that people need to prepare for it.

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Two questions, two answers.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SgtFury: Again, the statement that all of these things would happen in that generation makes clear that vv 29-30 do not speak of the 2nd Coming of Christ.

HP: I believe I understand what you are saying, but is it not possible that this verse is a dual prophesy, with those of the generation spoken of being both the present generation in light of the prophesy about to be fulfilled with the destruction of the Temple at hand, and the generation alive at the second coming of Christ? I am not stating my opinion, just asking.

 

[Sgt. Fury]

I don't think so. Jesus was speaking to a group of people that belonged to the generation that would not pass before all those things would come to pass. The preceding verse makes it even clearer to me that this warning is adressed to those living at that time.

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Often the simplest explanation is the most reliable one.

 

[DHK]

I don't think so. Jesus was speaking to a group of people that belonged to the generation that would not pass before all those things would come to pass. The preceding verse makes it even clearer to me that this warning is adressed to those living at that time.

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Often the simplest explanation is the most reliable one.

One cannot completely dismiss Scripture: "it is figurative, allegorical, has some other meaning, etc."
Those particular verses do have meaning. If they do not refer to the literal coming of Jesus Christ, then what do they refer to?

 

[peterotto]

1. You dismiss the first few verses realizing that between 29 A.D. and 70 A.D. there were not a great deal of wars, rumors of wars, nations rising against nations, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, etc. They just did not happen. You can't fit them in that time period. History doesn't record them.

:tonofbricks:

See Acts 11:28 "Agabus stood up and predicted by the Spirit that there would be a severe famine all over the world, and it happened under Claudius."

Acts 16:26 "And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed."