Continued from dead tulip

[Reformed1689]

I as a practice do not believe in paraphrasing God's Word, only explaining what is not understood.

Christ bore our sins bodily. Scripture explains Scripture. Christ being made sin for us, God giving Him as a guilt offering, Christ "sharing our infirmities", Christ being made a curse for us, Christ being made like us in all things, Christ dying for our sins, Christ dying for us, Christ dying by the wicked by the will of God . . .

If you cannot grasp all of those explanations then I certainly cannot offer you help.

I would simply paraphrase it as Christ bore our sins.


What you are looking for is extra-biblical philosophy discussing Christ being made sin for us. Why? Is Scripture really not enough for you to build your doctrines?

He was bruised FOR he was crushed FOR.

 

[JesusFan]

Does not matter what you reject - remember, I reject that justification is corporate rather than individual....but you still view my view as a NPP view.

You seem to pretty much agree with their view regarding Atonement and justification though!

 

[JesusFan]

He was bruised FOR he was crushed FOR.

he died in the place of and for us!

 

[JesusFan]

You have yet to say what that means.

His meaning seems to disagree with what the bible text actually states to us!

 

[JonC]

You seem to pretty much agree with their view regarding Atonement and justification though!

Just repeating your error does not make it correct.

Both Wright and I (and most importantly of Christianity) hold a Victorious Christ view. But I disagree with his view of Justification and atonement.

And you KNOW this because we have had this conversation.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

Isaiah 53:12, Isaiah 53:10. Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45.
John 10:11-18.
John 15:13.
For PSA Ezekiel 18:4, Romans 6:23, Romans 5:8. Was completed per John 19:28.

PSA is found in all those verses, but nothing of Christ dying spiritually - He poured out His "soul" meaning life. He reconciled us to the Father in His flesh, He absolutely bore some very horrible/unfathomable horrors on the cross, His spirit was burdened, but He did not die spiritually.

 

[JesusFan]

1 Peter 2:21-25
For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

By bearing our sins, Jesus had to then endure the wrath and judgement due to us as being sinners!

 

[JonC]

His meaning seems to disagree with what the bible text actually states to us!

I believe that God laying out iniquities on Christ refers to Christ bearing our sin bodily.

How does that disagree with the actual biblical text?
(It is the actual biblical text)

You believe it means God punished Jesus instead of punishing us.

How does that agree with the actual biblical text?
(It doesn't).

 

[JesusFan]

Where does it say His soul died?

Jesus died a physical death, not a spiritual death, as that would mean he ceased being God and had to get born again!

 

[JesusFan]

Just repeating your error does not make it correct.

Both Wright and I (and most importantly of Christianity) hold a Victorious Christ view. But I disagree with his view of Justification and atonement.

And you KNOW this because we have had this conversation.

You disagree with Psa, so where would you disagree with Wright regarding justification then?
And you NEVER have answered on what basis can God the Father freely justify a lost sinner if no Psa?

 

[JesusFan]

I believe that God laying out iniquities on Christ refers to Christ bearing our sin bodily.

How does that disagree with the actual biblical text?
(It is the actual biblical text)

You believe it means God punished Jesus instead of punishing us.

How does that agree with the actual biblical text?
(It doesn't).

Was Jesus forsaken by the God the Father while bearing our sins?

 

[Salty]

Just when some substantive arguments were being made. I swear, this rule is about allowing noncalvinists a way of escape.

then start a new thread - - and you can always link this one to the new one
also you dont have to wait for this one to close to start # 3!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So would you put yourself in the Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkin, Tony Evans camp of free grace (or cheap grace as some call it)? One is saved even if there are no signs of rebirth? Jesus said go forth and make disciples, not converts. It follows that when one sees the grievousness of their sins and their need for Christ leading to faith, then they no longer want to live in sin. Preaching the fruit of the Spirit, or works, is not legalism, it is a byproduct of rebirth created by the Holy Spirit. MacArthur simply says that if you are truly born again there will be evidence. The parable of the soils is a good example.

I lived for a time as a strict Orthodox Presbyterian and I hated it… My child died at birth and I asked an elder where the child was and I was told in hell…unless I was a member but I was not so I left them and pursued my Calvinism to a lesser degree with the Baptists. Try as I might, I could not live up to a Puritanical Model of what a true Christian was supposed to be… so maybe I’m not saved. Thank God for the Old Baptist lines who thru their explanations of scripture took me from a legalistic mindset to an unlimited Grace non conditional (not an Absoluter) position. Now I’m much happier and I no longer have a judge mental attitude toward people.

So if my son and wife want to stay in their Pedobaptistic mode and it’s not critical to their salvation, that’s OK with me. In time and with proper exegesis they will come around…I no longer sweat it. Should someone not agree with Doctrines of Grace then OK…that’s their decision! God knows who His people are and will bring them in, either now or in time. Makes no difference.

 

[JesusFan]

I believe that God laying out iniquities on Christ refers to Christ bearing our sin bodily.

How does that disagree with the actual biblical text?
(It is the actual biblical text)

You believe it means God punished Jesus instead of punishing us.

How does that agree with the actual biblical text?
(It doesn't).

By becoming the sin bearer, would Jesus not be enduring and experiencing what we had earned in our sins, that wrath and judgement?

 

[Reynolds]

PSA is found in all those verses, but nothing of Christ dying spiritually - He poured out His "soul" meaning life. He reconciled us to the Father in His flesh, He absolutely bore some very horrible/unfathomable horrors on the cross, His spirit was burdened, but He did not die spiritually.

Whether Christ died Spiritually depends on the definition of Spiritual death you are using. I define Spiritual death as "Separation from God." Jesus was indeed separated from His Father. In that sense, He died spiritually.
Jesus was spiritually dead in a similar sense a totally depraved sinner is spiritually dead prior to The Holy Spirit giving life to him.

 

[AustinC]

I provided de Scripture as well.....therefore your claim is bogus.

The issue is the Scripture you provide has nothing to do with PSA.

I could say "John 3:16, hamburgers are good". Just saying a verse does not make the opinion true.

The verses quoted do make it true, as saints from Peter on down have attested, yet you personally don't agree, which causes you to tell almost all Christendom that they are wrong.

Can you stop deflecting and admit that you are a voice of one against everyone else?

 

[37818]

Except PSA is not supported by Scripture.

We disagree. Isaiah 53:6. Mark 10:45.

 

[37818]

nothing of Christ dying spiritually

Agreed. I never claimed Christ died "spiritually." Christ's soul died. Those references I gave teach so.

 

[JonC]

The verses quoted do make it true, as saints from Peter on down have attested, yet you personally don't agree, which causes you to tell almost all Christendom that they are wrong.

Can you stop deflecting and admit that you are a voice of one against everyone else?

You are wrong here.

You are the one telling most of Christendom they are wrong. While those who share your faith are a very large group, they are still a minority within Christianity.

That in itself does not make your view incorrect, but it does call into question your discernment when it comes to evaluating opposing views.

Stop and think about it for a moment. You hold a minority view insofar as PSA. But even within that group you are a Calvinist, which makes you an even smaller minority. And among Calvinists you are a Baptist, which places you at odds with the vast majority of Christians.

This does not make you incorrect insofar as doctrine. But it does mean you are among a small sect crying to most of Christendom that we all got it wrong.

That is why it is difficult to take you seriously. You seem blind to the Christian faith except those who exist in your small corner of the world.

 

[JonC]

We disagree. Isaiah 53:6. Mark 10:45.

We do disagree Not on those passages (I affirm those verses as well) but on what you think those passages teach.