Continued:Presuppositionalism and KJV Onlyism

[Rev. Lowery]

Natters the KJV is older than all the other translations so then there for we must compare what comes after to what existed before.

People dont say oh look his dad looks like him do they it doesnt make sense.

Rev. Jerry D. Lowery D.D.

 

[Lisa Lowery]

I'm sorry for being vague in that. What I meant by "softened or edited" was that some of the modern versions just pick and choose what they want in there and the rest of they just leave out.

Like if someone has never picked up the Bible and was in a book store and saw The Message They'd think that that book was just a version of the bible that was put in modern translation for everyday people.

Or like in The Message,it changed the parts about homosexuality being a sin which is in Romans 1:27 in The Message Compare it to Romans 1:27 in the KJV.

Or the way a certain "Bible for teens" say sex is "that fun thing grownups don't want you to do". That's the type of editing I meant.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Rev. Lowery:

Lets get some backbone and stand against this world and its unrighteousness the only way to do that is to agree among ourselves first.

Paul did not always agree with other Christians. Yet he was a servant of God.

The issue is not conformity but unity.

 

[Lisa Lowery]

Bah don't listen to him we hardly ever agree and yet we're both still here and proof reading eachother's posts

But I agree we don't have to agree on everything just the one thing that brings us all here in the first place.

 

[Rev. Lowery]

They may not have agreed but they knew the word of God is infallible. People these days say there is no infallible word of God. Welp, I am here to say there is, was , and always will be because God, not man, said there would be. When every knee bows and ever tongue confesses then what will we have to say, I didn't believe you God? Will we stand before Him and call Him a liar no we want then why do it here on Earth. Those that claim Christ as Lord and Savior but yet there will isn't subject to his nor is there mind and life a reflection thereof. What are we to say to them oh continue on in your ways. It would be ungodly for us as Christians to let people delude themselves into thinking such perverse thoughts as what has been displayed here in this forum. On many occasions translaters of other Bibles have revised and revised and revised there would be no need to do so if it was right the first time. The KJV 1611 has not been revised from its original text since that time. The Bible in 1611 is word for word the Bible I hold in my hand this very day. No other book can make that claim.

Rev. Jerry D. Lowery D.D.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Rev. Lowery:
The Bible in 1611 is word for word the Bible I hold in my hand this very day. No other book can make that claim.

Either you have not seen a newer KJV or a 1611. The KJV has been revised several times.

http://members.aol.com/pilgrimpub/revision.htm

 

[Rev. Lowery]

I have seen 1611 and I a copy of the 1611 KJV

I never said the 1850 KJV is what I had or have, 1611 KJV 4tw, Though I do have several versions of the Bible KJV and other English translations


Rev. Jerry D. Lowery D.D.

 

[natters]

Originally posted by Rev. Lowery:
Natters the KJV is older than all the other translations so then there for we must compare what comes after to what existed before.

Actually, this is not correct. In fact, the KJV was a revision of the Bishops' Bible, which was in turn a revision of the Great Bible. KJV-only author D.A. Waite has a list of English translations in one of his books, and the KJV was the 17th complete English Bible, and 29th if you include just NTs. For example, I have a 1560 Geneva reprint, as well as reprints of Cramner's, Bishops', Tyndale's and Wycliffe's Bibles, all predating the KJV. Also, that's just English. If we include other translations, we can go back almost two millennia, not just 400 years.

Lisa said

What I meant by "softened or edited" was that some of the modern versions just pick and choose what they want in there and the rest of they just leave out.

I'm sorry, but that's not how other translations are done. Well, maybe you could apply that to The Message, since it is a loose paraphrase and not a strict translation. However, the example you give from the Bible for Teens is not from the main Bible text, nor even intended to be understood as a Christian definition of sex.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Rev. Lowery:
I have seen 1611 and I a copy of the 1611 KJV

I never said the 1850 KJV is what I had or have, 1611 KJV 4tw, Though I do have several versions of the Bible KJV and other English translations


Rev. Jerry D. Lowery D.D.

Isn't older better?

In fact much of the basis of the KJV came from the tremendous work of William Tyndale, who was martyred for his faith, and the translation of the Bible that he produced. The Catholic Church so hated the work that he did that they gathered up as many copies as they could and burned them. They hated to even think of putting the Word of God in the vernacular, and making it available to the common person. Tyndale's works was the basis of the KJV.
But do you honor it? Would you use it:

For the wrath of God apereth from heven agaynst all vngodlynes and vnrighteousnes of men which withholde the trueth in vnrighteousnes: seynge, what maye be knowen of God, that same is manifest amonge them. For God dyd shewe it vnto them. So that his invisible thinges: that is to saye, his eternall power and godhed are vnderstonde and sene, by the workes from the creacion of the worlde. So that they are without excuse, in as moche as when they knewe god, they glorified him not as God, nether were thankfull, but wexed full of vanities in their imaginacions, and their folisshe hertes were blynded. [2] When they counted them selves wyse, they became foles and turned the glory of the immortall god, vnto the similitude of the ymage of mortall man, and of byrdes, and foure foted beastes, and of serpentes. Wherfore god lykewyse gave them vp vnto their hertes lustes, vnto vnclennes, to defyle their awne boddyes bitwene them selves: which tourned his truthe vnto a lye, and worshipped and served the creatures more then the maker, which is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause god gave them vp vnto shamfull lustes. For even their wemen did chaunge the naturall vse vnto the vnnaturall. And lyke wyse also the men lefte the naturall vse of the woman, and brent in their lustes one on another. And man with man wrought filthynes, and receaved in them selves the rewarde of their erroure, as it was accordinge. (Rom.1:18-28)

Some KJVO's think that we should make other nations learn the KJV Bible first before they can be saved or discipled in their own language. Maybe we should demand they study only out of Tyndale's Bible.
DHK

 

[Eliyahu]

The Rule of the Older is the Better doesn't apply to the Bible unless that Older is the original Autograph, I think.
I agree that KJV reflected 70-75% of Tyndale's NT,but KJV had to work for OT.
The facts about the revision of minor wordings in KJV should not be exaggerated, I think. How many times have NIV or RV or ASV or any other MV's been amended during the short period time?, even those changes were including many critical issues.
I believe KJV will stand firm as the leading Bible in English until Lord comes, even though there may be a lot of challenges against it.

Some KJVO's think that we should make other nations learn the KJV Bible first before they can be saved or discipled in their own language. Maybe we should demand they study only out of Tyndale's Bible .

This is a typical exaggeration and a sardonic sarcasm by MV's. I have never met such KJVO as thinking that. Suggesting Tyndale at this stage, while we have KJV, is not helping the faith of the people.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Suggesting Tyndale at this stage, while we
have KJV, is not helping the faith of the
people.

Suggesting the KJV at this state, while we
have HCSB*, is not helping the faith of the
people.

HCSB = Christian Standard Bible (Holman, 2003)

350 Million people in the world use the
English used in the 21st Century (2001-2100).
Now as in 1611, there are about 8 Million
Early Modern English users (16th century
/1501-1600/ English)

 

[Rev. Lowery]

So basically what non-kjvo people are trying to say here is when God said he would preserve He simply meant the Gospel of Christ being the only way to heaven and the basics of Christianity. I would have to agree that any translation you read does hold the basics of Jesus = salvation.

In this I do agree.

Rev. Jerry D. Lowery D.D.

 

[Eliyahu]

As long as HCSB can defend the Truth in the following verses:

1) Matthew 15:8
2) Acts 9:5-6
3) Acts 12:4
4) 1 Corinthians 1:21
5) Ephesian 3:9
6) 1 Tim 3:16
7) Heb 2:16
8) 1 John 5:7
9) without defaming or degrading the genuineness of Acts 8:37
10) without omission of Acts 15:34 (because I believe tha Words of God shall not pass away! Mt 24:35)
11) Daniel 9:26 is translated correctly as KJV.
12) 1 Kings 14:24.

I wish any people as faithful and sincere as the translators for KJV can update the language of KJV based on the same texts so that it can serve the English speaking people in this era.
In that case, I would support them, even though it may be complementary to KJV.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I rebuke the false presumption that the
Bible, God's Holy Written Word, is a series
of independent verses.

I presuppose that God has preserved His
Holy Written Word for each generation
and in many languages (not just Hebrew
and Greek). God cannot be bound by
His creation, the Universe, nor by one
and only one book.

So I can easily prove that God, by His
Divine Providence, has preserved His
Holy Written Word for each Generation
including my own Inerrant, Perfect
HCSB (Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ).

I don't have time to defend the HCSB verse by
verse. The HCSB is the inerrant, perfect,
preserved Written Word of God for us who
live in the Twenty-first Century (2001-2100).

Historican English versions like the Tyndale
are useful to study, if you happen to be
hip to 14th Century English (1301-1400).

 

[Ed Edwards]

Daniel 9:26 (KJV1611 Edition):
And after threescore and two weekes,
shall Messiah be cut off, ||but not for himselfe,
and the people of the Prince that shall come,
shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie,
and the ende thereof shall be with a flood,
and vnto the ende of the warre desolations are determined.

Sidenote: || Or, shall have nothing.

Daniel 9:26 (HCSB):
After those 62 weeks
the Messiah will be cut off
and will have nothing.
The people of the coming prince
will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end will come with a flood,
and until the end there will be war;
desolations are decreed.

Show me the difference.
Show me the doctrine that is changed between versions.
Show me how this verse and this verse alone
supports the changed doctrine.

Ed's Verse-al Rule:
Don't base your Doctrine on one minunderstood verse.

 

[Ed Edwards]

1 Kings 14:24 (KJV1769 Edition with Strong's Numbers):
And there were1961 also1571 sodomites6945 in the land:776
and they did6213 according to all3605 the abominations8441
of the nations1471 which834 the LORD3068 cast out3423
before4480, 6440 the children1121 of Israel.3478

H6945
קדשׁ
qâdêsh
kaw-dashe'
From H6942; a (quasi) sacred person, that is, (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: - sodomite, unclean.


1 Kings 14:24 (HCSB):
there were even male shrine prostitutes in the land.
They imitated all the abominations
of the nations the Lord had dispossessed
before the Israelites.

Show me the difference.
Show me the doctrine that is changed between versions.
Show me how this verse and this verse alone
supports the changed doctrine.

Ed's One Verse Rule:
Don't base your Doctrine on one minunderstood verse.

 

[Ed Edwards]

And now I'll show I have respect for those KJVOs
who are loosing this debate Big time. I'll help
by showing a doctrine changed by the interpertation
of a verse:

----------------------------------
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes, for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sinne bee reuealed, the sonne of perdition,

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come
unless the apostasy comes first
and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

Show me the difference.
Show me the doctrine that is changed between versions.
Show me how this verse and this verse alone
supports the changed doctrine.

Ed's One Verse Rule:
Don't base your Doctrine on one minunderstood verse.
----------------------------------

Show me the difference.

The KJV says 'falling away' and could mean
the falling away of the saints from the earth
(AKA: 'the caught up' /Latin: Rapture/ );
the HCSB says 'apostasy' and could mean the abandonment
of the truth path.

Show me the doctrine that is changed between versions.

The doctrine of the pretribulation rapture is supported
directly by the KJV, the doctrine of the post-tribulation
rapture is supported direclty by the HCSB.

Show me how this verse and this verse alone
supports the changed doctrine.

However, there is good news for Ed the Pretribulation
Rapture Hoper* (PRH) - this is not the only verse.

*note: not HOP-ER, one who hops; but HOPE-ER, one who Hopes.
Who woulda' thought that silent 'e' would be so important

God, in His Divine Providence has (and will contine as
long as the Lord taries) preserved His Written
Word for all generations. The best parts are mentioned the
most often. Perhaps as much as 1/3 of the New Testament supports
the doctrine(s) of Personal Salvation for which purpose
God Send Messiah Jesus to the world in the First Advent.

 

[Eliyahu]

Daniel 9:26
Messiah will have nothing?
Messiah will be cut off but not for him (but for us!)
The verse can hardly be translated as " having nothing" "for him there is nothing" is not impossible but in that case there should be the verb Hai as it is future tense, and moreover it is not smoothy connection.

 

[Eliyahu]

1 Kings 14:24
It should be "shrine male prostitutes" unless it try to avoid the conflict with gay prostitutes.

KJV teaches enough against sodomites.

 

[Eliyahu]

Ed, you didn't comment on these which are more important than 2 The 2:3

1) Matthew 15:8
2) Acts 9:5-6
3) Acts 12:4
4) 1 Corinthians 1:21
5) Ephesian 3:9
6) 1 Tim 3:16
7) Heb 2:16
8) 1 John 5:7
9) without defaming or degrading the genuineness of Acts 8:37
10) without omission of Acts 15:34 (because I believe tha Words of God shall not pass away! Mt 24:35)