Controversial Questions

[ntchristian]

Are we allowed to ask what would probably be controversial questions and discuss controversial matters on this forum? I have some issues I'd like to get input on, issues that are making me have doubts. I would like to get some help on these issues.

 

[alexander284]

I don't see why not. After all, just about every discussion we have here is controversial.

 

[Rob_BW]

Controversial how?

There are some verboten topics discussed in the rules.

 

[alexander284]

I guess it's like adult diapers. It "Depends."

 

[ntchristian]

Controversial how?

There are some verboten topics discussed in the rules.

I have some problems with certain OT scriptures which I guess concern God's nature. I was wondering if those could be discussed. I don't want to get banned. I hope to stay here because all of you are helping me. This might be my last chance to stay in organized Christianity.

 

[Rob_BW]

I have some problems with certain OT scriptures which I guess concern God's nature. I was wondering if those could be discussed. I don't want to get banned. I hope to stay here because all of you are helping me. This might be my last chance to stay in organized Christianity.

Discussing them is fine, as long as the authority and inspiration of the canon isn't questioned.

 

[ntchristian]

Discussing them is fine, as long as the authority and inspiration of the canon isn't questioned.

Well, then I guess I'll try this and see.

 

[ntchristian]

Two places that concern me are these: Where God asks Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. The other is the entire Book of Job. I'll explain further later.

 

[evenifigoalone]

There's quite a bit in the Bible that can be difficult to swallow, I understand where you're coming from. I think the reason I never questioned a lot of these things is because I grew up in church and heard these stories as a young child--so they never struck me as odd or extreme.

 

[ntchristian]

There's quite a bit in the Bible that can be difficult to swallow, I understand where you're coming from. I think the reason I never questioned a lot of these things is because I grew up in church and heard these stories as a young child--so they never struck me as odd or extreme.

I did, too. But after I got grown I started to question a lot of things.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Two places that concern me are these: Where God asks Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. The other is the entire Book of Job. I'll explain further later.

In terms of God asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, God did nothing wrong. It was a test for Abraham and a lesson for us.

To Abraham, I'm sure it was confusing and even horrifying.....but as the book of Hebrews says, Abraham had absolute faith in God for his promises and he knew that God would raise Isaac from the dead if he was slain. Abraham believed God would be faithful to his word and promises.

That's UBER faith. God asking him to kill his son that was promised to bring forth a nation and a people that could not be numbered - and Abraham, having no discussion of raising Isaac from the dead but believing it in his heart.

Hebrews 11:19 - "He [Abraham] considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back."

 

[ntchristian]

In terms of God asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, God did nothing wrong. It was a test for Abraham and a lesson for us.

To Abraham, I'm sure it was confusing and even horrifying.....but as the book of Hebrews says, Abraham had absolute faith in God for his promises and he knew that God would raise Isaac from the dead if he was slain. Abraham believed God would be faithful to his word and promises.

That's UBER faith. God asking him to kill his son that was promised to bring forth a nation and a people that could not be numbered - and Abraham, having no discussion of raising Isaac from the dead but believing it in his heart.

Hebrews 11:19 - "He [Abraham] considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back."

God is omnipotent and all-knowing. So, why would he need to test Abraham if He knew beforehand what Abraham would do? The only thing that makes sense here to me is that either God does not know what free choice a person will make beforehand, or this story is not to be taken literally but attempts to teach a moral truth.

 

[Scarlett O.]

God is omnipotent and all-knowing. So, why would he need to test Abraham if He knew beforehand what Abraham would do? The only thing that makes sense here to me is that either God does not know what free choice a person will make beforehand, or this story is not to be taken literally but attempts to teach a moral truth.

Yes, he knew what Abraham would do.

But, guess what. Abraham is not omniscient. HE had to face the crisis - and it was a crisis in his heart for a flicker or two at least - and Abraham had to decide to place his faith in God. Abraham had growth in spirit to the point his faith in God bringing Isaac back overrode the in-your-face-truth that his son was about to die by his own hands.

Had God not put the test in place and in action - would Abraham had developed the unwavering faith and trust in the promises of God? Faith grows and increases when we are tested. At least it should.

Yes, God knew. Abraham did not.

Had Abraham not endured this, how could have taught his family what REAL faith is? Abraham showed some signs of wishy-wishiness in his early days. Not trusting God and lying about his marriage. Not believing God and suggesting to God to adopt his servant as a son and following through the Sarah's option of using a surrogate.

NOW Abraham knows fully and 110% completely what it means to trust God. And we do, too.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

God is omnipotent and all-knowing. So, why would he need to test Abraham if He knew beforehand what Abraham would do? The only thing that makes sense here to me is that either God does not know what free choice a person will make beforehand, or this story is not to be taken literally but attempts to teach a moral truth.

This is not just about Abraham and Isaac, but about God and Christ, and about us who like Abraham believe. This was a profound way of prophesying the sacrifice of Christ.

So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, “On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided.” —Genesis 22:14 (NIV)

He did. It was. And we are saved.

 

[ntchristian]

Yes, he knew what Abraham would do.

But, guess what. Abraham is not omniscient. HE had to face the crisis - and it was a crisis in his heart for a flicker or two at least - and Abraham had to decide to place his faith in God. Abraham had growth in spirit to the point his faith in God bringing Isaac back overrode the in-your-face-truth that his son was about to die by his own hands.

Had God not put the test in place and in action - would Abraham had developed the unwavering faith and trust in the promises of God? Faith grows and increases when we are tested. At least it should.

Yes, God knew. Abraham did not.

Had Abraham not endured this, how could have taught his family what REAL faith is? Abraham showed some signs of wishy-wishiness in his early days. Not trusting God and lying about his marriage. Not believing God and suggesting to God to adopt his servant as a son and following through the Sarah's option of using a surrogate.

NOW Abraham knows fully and 110% completely what it means to trust God. And we do, too.

Sorry, not buying it. If I say more, I might get banned, and I don't want that to happen. But maybe it will anyway, and maybe I'm not cut out to be a member of a conservative Christian body, even though I am conservative in my views, or mostly so.

 

[xlsdraw]

Hebrews 12:6-11

 

[evenifigoalone]

Have you tried googling your questions? There are quite a few websites out there devoted to apologetics. I used to use a few of them, but I no longer remember the names or addresses of the sites.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Sorry, not buying it.

Look, nt. I didn't expect you to buy it. I knew what direction you were headed in when you brought up why would God do something that he already knew the outcome of.

You aren't the first to call this Bible event figurative.

All I could do was to present scriptures from the New Testament that say it is literal. And to present why the omniscience of God has nothing to do with this event.

C'est la vie.

 

[ntchristian]

Have you tried googling your questions? There are quite a few websites out there devoted to apologetics. I used to use a few of them, but I no longer remember the names or addresses of the sites.

I haven't tried that yet. Thanks for the tip.

 

[ntchristian]

Look, nt. I didn't expect you to buy it. I knew what direction you were headed in when you brought up why would God do something that he already knew the outcome of.

You aren't the first to call this Bible event figurative.

All I could do was to present scriptures from the New Testament that say it is literal. And to present why the omniscience of God has nothing to do with this event.

C'est la vie.

You didn't quite know the direction I was headed in because it goes way beyond that for me. Don't know if I should say more.