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Controversial Questions

evenifigoalone

Well-Known Member
I'm not a mod of course, but imo you should be free to express your questions. The problem, I would think, would come if you were claiming your objections to be absolute fact in an attempt to take down Christianity. But it doesn't seem like that's your goal, you're here to get answers, correct?
 

ntchristian

Active Member
I'm not a mod of course, but imo you should be free to express your questions. The problem, I would think, would come if you were claiming your objections to be absolute fact in an attempt to take down Christianity. But it doesn't seem like that's your goal, you're here to get answers, correct?

Certainly I'm not trying to take down Christianity since I am a Christian. Yes, I am seeking answers.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sorry, not buying it. If I say more, I might get banned, and I don't want that to happen. But maybe it will anyway, and maybe I'm not cut out to be a member of a conservative Christian body, even though I am conservative in my views, or mostly so.

Is it a matter of ethics? Go with your good conscience. God is Love. And your good conscience is his direct voice and line to you.

Like if some divine being demanded me to sacrifice anyone as in the means of killing them, he's going to get NO from me.

But consider for a moment you are practically friends with God. Death ain't actual a thing because you live on the thread of God anyways. So Abraham knew God can bring a person back to life.

Hebrews 11

17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18it was he to whom it was said, “IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED.” 19He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.
 

ntchristian

Active Member
Is it a matter of ethics? Go with your good conscience. God is Love. And your good conscience is his direct voice and line to you.

Like if some divine being demanded me to sacrifice anyone as in the means of killing them, he's going to get NO from me.

But consider for a moment you are practically friends with God. Death ain't actual a thing because you live on the thread of God anyways. So Abraham knew God can bring a person back to life.

Hebrews 11

17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18it was he to whom it was said, “IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED.” 19He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.

Thank you for your kind, encouraging, and understanding words. That means a lot to me, my friend.

I realize Abraham knew that God could bring a person back to life. But Isaac would still have experienced tremendous pain, and death. The story doesn't seem to me to reflect the picture Jesus presented of God. If that's true, what's the answer?

It also seems to me that the image of God that Jesus showed differs from some of the images of God in the OT. That is troubling to me. I have great difficulty reconciling these conflicting images.
 

ntchristian

Active Member
I want to put forth the following: If the mods and admins feel that my line of questioning is not acceptable, I will voluntarily withdraw from the forum. I am not trying to contend that I know everything and surely not trying to force anyone to believe anything, or cause anyone to doubt their faith. I am just trying to get some clarity about some of the things that have tested my own faith or troubled it.
 

Zenas

Active Member
Two places that concern me are these: Where God asks Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. The other is the entire Book of Job. I'll explain further later.
If God would give His own son to be sacrificed in a cruel death, it should be strange that He would ask Abraham to sacrifice his son. God’s act was out a love for humanity; Abraham’s act was out of a love of God.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Thank you for your kind, encouraging, and understanding words. That means a lot to me, my friend.

I realize Abraham knew that God could bring a person back to life. But Isaac would still have experienced tremendous pain, and death. The story doesn't seem to me to reflect the picture Jesus presented of God. If that's true, what's the answer?

It also seems to me that the image of God that Jesus showed differs from some of the images of God in the OT. That is troubling to me. I have great difficulty reconciling these conflicting images.

I think that is part of the whole story contrasting how the Pagans of the time did do child sacrifices. Even when they left Abraham said:

Genesis 22
8Abraham said, “God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” So the two of them walked on together.

In a sense it portrays Jesus as the Ram that takes our place in Issac. We see God taking responsibility.


You have to understand OT anthropomorphically attribute things to God. Even Jews today get troubled by what God "does".

There is tons worst things. Like God ordering killing of every living being, Men, Women, Children, cattle, family dog.
God killing a guy for not getting his brother in law's wife pregnant.
Guys burning their daughter in sacrifice to God for winning wars.
God sicking bears on children to tear them to pieces.

Some might like to say God is privileged to do evil in the guise of "Justice".

No God is Good, actually good, and can be demonstrated to be good.

1 Corinthians 13

1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
 

ntchristian

Active Member
I think that is part of the whole story contrasting how the Pagans of the time did do child sacrifices. Even when they left Abraham said:

Genesis 22
8Abraham said, “God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” So the two of them walked on together.

In a sense it portrays Jesus as the Ram that takes our place in Issac. We see God taking responsibility.


You have to understand OT anthropomorphically attribute things to God. Even Jews today get troubled by what God "does".

There is tons worst things. Like God ordering killing of every living being, Men, Women, Children, cattle, family dog.
God killing a guy for not getting his brother in law's wife pregnant.
Guys burning their daughter in sacrifice to God for winning wars.
God sicking bears on children to tear them to pieces.

Some might like to say God is privileged to do evil in the guise of "Justice".

No God is Good, actually good, and can be demonstrated to be good.

1 Corinthians 13

1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

So, how do you explain the "worse things" that you listed?
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So, how do you explain the "worse things" that you listed?
Anthropomorphism. The writers will attribute to God human-like actions and communications. Things we might read literal may be figures of speech and not to be taken literal. Some stories figurative. Some hyperbole.

Noah's ark, Your looking at God wiping out everyone on earth except for 8 people and roughly 17 million animals in one boat.

The idea of just seeing 100,000 different animals in one spot would probably blow my mind.

Kill count wise if flooding the earth means the entire earth for 40 days.

In the story mentions taking 7 pairs of clean of all the clean animals only one pair of unclean. But whats clean or not doesn't get identified until later with Moses. And Noah is 600 years old.

I think the emphasis is God is giving us a way out from all the evil and the destruction evil brings on itself.


Your questioning all this stuff is not wrong and taught in scripture. Your commanded to examine it.

1 Thessalonians 5

21But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 22abstain from every form of evil.
 

ntchristian

Active Member
Anthropomorphism. The writers will attribute to God human-like actions and communications. Things we might read literal may be figures of speech and not to be taken literal. Some stories figurative. Some hyperbole.

Noah's ark, Your looking at God wiping out everyone on earth except for 8 people and roughly 17 million animals in one boat.

The idea of just seeing 100,000 different animals in one spot would probably blow my mind.

Kill count wise if flooding the earth means the entire earth for 40 days.

In the story mentions taking 7 pairs of clean of all the clean animals only one pair of unclean. But whats clean or not doesn't get identified until later with Moses. And Noah is 600 years old.

I think the emphasis is God is giving us a way out from all the evil and the destruction evil brings on itself.


Your questioning all this stuff is not wrong and taught in scripture. Your commanded to examine it.

1 Thessalonians 5

21But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 22abstain from every form of evil.

Thank you for what you said. I have taken quite a lot of flack from some for my questioning. Some I have encountered think that if you don't take a passage in the way they take it, that you're denying scripture or its inspiration. I don't see it that way.

I know you and I have our differences, but you have helped me a lot, and I appreciate that.
 

church mouse guy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Anthropomorphism. The writers will attribute to God human-like actions and communications. Things we might read literal may be figures of speech and not to be taken literal. Some stories figurative. Some hyperbole.

Noah's ark, Your looking at God wiping out everyone on earth except for 8 people and roughly 17 million animals in one boat.

The idea of just seeing 100,000 different animals in one spot would probably blow my mind.

Kill count wise if flooding the earth means the entire earth for 40 days.

In the story mentions taking 7 pairs of clean of all the clean animals only one pair of unclean. But whats clean or not doesn't get identified until later with Moses. And Noah is 600 years old.

I think the emphasis is God is giving us a way out from all the evil and the destruction evil brings on itself.


Your questioning all this stuff is not wrong and taught in scripture. Your commanded to examine it.

1 Thessalonians 5

21But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 22abstain from every form of evil.

Where do you get your number for the animals on the Ark?
 

Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
There is tons worst things. Like God ordering killing of every living being, Men, Women, Children, cattle, family dog.
God killing a guy for not getting his brother in law's wife pregnant.
Guys burning their daughter in sacrifice to God for winning wars.
God sicking bears on children to tear them to pieces.

Your descriptions here of the "worse things" leave a terrible lot of clarifying information out. Information that could be helpful.

"Like God ordering killing of every living being, Men, Women, Children, cattle, family dog." When God explained to Abraham that his descendants would be captive for 400 years and then they would be allowed to go into the Promised Land, he explained that time frame was such because the "sin of the Amorite was not yet full". God waited for centures, giving the Hebrews a time to assemble as a nation and giving the ungodly peoples of the Promised Land a time for their hearts to soften. God is immensely patient. He's not the cold killing machine that many make him out to be. There were lots of people in the Promised Land who assimilated into the Hebrew nation - the first, a whore named Rahab. She had the privilege of becoming King David's great-grandmother. I've read the Old Testament line by line and verse by verse discussing it together will people who enjoy the same. Some like knitting or putting old cars together. I like reading the Old Testament with like-minded people. We are always astounded at God's mercy upon people. And we are not offended by his wrath after that mercy has given people a tremendous opportunity to become righteous.


"God killing a guy for not getting his brother in law's wife pregnant" Are you talking about Er and Onan? They were brothers - Judah's sons. Er was super evil and died. Onan should have married Er's wife, Tamar, and given her children. Legally, any sons born to her would belong to the dead husband, Er, and would inherit his double portion. Onan did married her and did disgrace her by not inseminating her during their intimate times. I won't explain all that - you understand. He was greedy and wanted his portion, plus his brother's double portion. He was disobedient to his father, to God, and disgraced his wife. God killed him. He was not some innocent man who did nothing wrong.


"Guys burning their daughter in sacrifice to God for winning wars." As far as I know, there was only one man who did this and it was Jephthah. He, by his own admission, he was devastated at the outcome of his vow. It was a stupid and foolish vow. And God had nothing to do with his making of the vow. It was a time, the Bible says, that everyone did what was right in their own eyes And that usually was the wrong thing bringing terrible results.


"God sicking bears on children to tear them to pieces." These weren't innocent little kindergarten children that ELISHA called two she-bears own upon. The Hebrew word, "na'ar" mostly means young men or youths. It's used once for a baby and a few times for children [still vague], once for Isaac when he was 39, Joseph at 20.....you get the point.

Elisha had just watched Elijah taken up in the whirlwind. He is now headed for Bethel - a place not known for being welcoming to true prophets of God. These "youths" would have to be old enough to understand the rejection of a true prophet for them to have rejected Elisha. They mocked him, told him to "go up" [or fly up like Elijah] - intimating they did not believe that story and in their mockery of God's prophet - they mocked God. Elisha cursed them and two she-bears came and cut up 42 of them - implying there were more than 42. It doesn't say the bears killed them. I can well imagine that Elisha facing 42+ young men mocking him and mocking God had no other recourse in his mind.

To me, in-depth reading and praying over sensational texts gives the light of truth to God and people.


 

Steven Yeadon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Two places that concern me are these: Where God asks Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. The other is the entire Book of Job. I'll explain further later.

I would love to hear your questions on Job. I identify with Job so much in my own life, which has been hard and cruel, so it remains one of my favorite historical narratives.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
God is omnipotent and all-knowing. So, why would he need to test Abraham if He knew beforehand what Abraham would do?
Well some traditional Christians may not like this, but it was the LORD God by way of His preincarnate Son through whom all things created were created. This requires temporal being which only the Son of God can provied. He being both God with the Father and being someone other than God too, being the Son of God. That is why He being the LORD God could truthfully say to Abraham, "Now I know," Genesis 22:12. See Mark 13:32 and and what Jesus explained, Acts of the Apostles 1:7. God is fully omniscient, but as the Son purposely limited in His omnscience regarding some yet future things, otherwise being fully omniscient of everything that is created, Hebrews 1:3, John 1:9-10.
 
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utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Your descriptions here of the "worse things" leave a terrible lot of clarifying information out. Information that could be helpful.

"Like God ordering killing of every living being, Men, Women, Children, cattle, family dog." When God explained to Abraham that his descendants would be captive for 400 years and then they would be allowed to go into the Promised Land, he explained that time frame was such because the "sin of the Amorite was not yet full". God waited for centures, giving the Hebrews a time to assemble as a nation and giving the ungodly peoples of the Promised Land a time for their hearts to soften. God is immensely patient. He's not the cold killing machine that many make him out to be. There were lots of people in the Promised Land who assimilated into the Hebrew nation - the first, a whore named Rahab. She had the privilege of becoming King David's great-grandmother. I've read the Old Testament line by line and verse by verse discussing it together will people who enjoy the same. Some like knitting or putting old cars together. I like reading the Old Testament with like-minded people. We are always astounded at God's mercy upon people. And we are not offended by his wrath after that mercy has given people a tremendous opportunity to become righteous.


"God killing a guy for not getting his brother in law's wife pregnant" Are you talking about Er and Onan? They were brothers - Judah's sons. Er was super evil and died. Onan should have married Er's wife, Tamar, and given her children. Legally, any sons born to her would belong to the dead husband, Er, and would inherit his double portion. Onan did married her and did disgrace her by not inseminating her during their intimate times. I won't explain all that - you understand. He was greedy and wanted his portion, plus his brother's double portion. He was disobedient to his father, to God, and disgraced his wife. God killed him. He was not some innocent man who did nothing wrong.


"Guys burning their daughter in sacrifice to God for winning wars." As far as I know, there was only one man who did this and it was Jephthah. He, by his own admission, he was devastated at the outcome of his vow. It was a stupid and foolish vow. And God had nothing to do with his making of the vow. It was a time, the Bible says, that everyone did what was right in their own eyes And that usually was the wrong thing bringing terrible results.


"God sicking bears on children to tear them to pieces." These weren't innocent little kindergarten children that ELISHA called two she-bears own upon. The Hebrew word, "na'ar" mostly means young men or youths. It's used once for a baby and a few times for children [still vague], once for Isaac when he was 39, Joseph at 20.....you get the point.

Elisha had just watched Elijah taken up in the whirlwind. He is now headed for Bethel - a place not known for being welcoming to true prophets of God. These "youths" would have to be old enough to understand the rejection of a true prophet for them to have rejected Elisha. They mocked him, told him to "go up" [or fly up like Elijah] - intimating they did not believe that story and in their mockery of God's prophet - they mocked God. Elisha cursed them and two she-bears came and cut up 42 of them - implying there were more than 42. It doesn't say the bears killed them. I can well imagine that Elisha facing 42+ young men mocking him and mocking God had no other recourse in his mind.

To me, in-depth reading and praying over sensational texts gives the light of truth to God and people.


Thank you for picking it up, I was hoping for folks to research a defense of God themselves.

I don't think things like the 2 bears ain't going to catch 42 people, tearing, cutting through, could be splitting formations allowing an escape. Elisha is generally a kind and loving guy. Tearing even mauling does not equal killing.

The point I was trying to make is indeed we can get the wrong impression. Lets vilify our interpretation before we vilify God.
 

ntchristian

Active Member
Your descriptions here of the "worse things" leave a terrible lot of clarifying information out. Information that could be helpful.

"Like God ordering killing of every living being, Men, Women, Children, cattle, family dog." When God explained to Abraham that his descendants would be captive for 400 years and then they would be allowed to go into the Promised Land, he explained that time frame was such because the "sin of the Amorite was not yet full". God waited for centures, giving the Hebrews a time to assemble as a nation and giving the ungodly peoples of the Promised Land a time for their hearts to soften. God is immensely patient. He's not the cold killing machine that many make him out to be. There were lots of people in the Promised Land who assimilated into the Hebrew nation - the first, a whore named Rahab. She had the privilege of becoming King David's great-grandmother. I've read the Old Testament line by line and verse by verse discussing it together will people who enjoy the same. Some like knitting or putting old cars together. I like reading the Old Testament with like-minded people. We are always astounded at God's mercy upon people. And we are not offended by his wrath after that mercy has given people a tremendous opportunity to become righteous.


"God killing a guy for not getting his brother in law's wife pregnant" Are you talking about Er and Onan? They were brothers - Judah's sons. Er was super evil and died. Onan should have married Er's wife, Tamar, and given her children. Legally, any sons born to her would belong to the dead husband, Er, and would inherit his double portion. Onan did married her and did disgrace her by not inseminating her during their intimate times. I won't explain all that - you understand. He was greedy and wanted his portion, plus his brother's double portion. He was disobedient to his father, to God, and disgraced his wife. God killed him. He was not some innocent man who did nothing wrong.


"Guys burning their daughter in sacrifice to God for winning wars." As far as I know, there was only one man who did this and it was Jephthah. He, by his own admission, he was devastated at the outcome of his vow. It was a stupid and foolish vow. And God had nothing to do with his making of the vow. It was a time, the Bible says, that everyone did what was right in their own eyes And that usually was the wrong thing bringing terrible results.


"God sicking bears on children to tear them to pieces." These weren't innocent little kindergarten children that ELISHA called two she-bears own upon. The Hebrew word, "na'ar" mostly means young men or youths. It's used once for a baby and a few times for children [still vague], once for Isaac when he was 39, Joseph at 20.....you get the point.

Elisha had just watched Elijah taken up in the whirlwind. He is now headed for Bethel - a place not known for being welcoming to true prophets of God. These "youths" would have to be old enough to understand the rejection of a true prophet for them to have rejected Elisha. They mocked him, told him to "go up" [or fly up like Elijah] - intimating they did not believe that story and in their mockery of God's prophet - they mocked God. Elisha cursed them and two she-bears came and cut up 42 of them - implying there were more than 42. It doesn't say the bears killed them. I can well imagine that Elisha facing 42+ young men mocking him and mocking God had no other recourse in his mind.

To me, in-depth reading and praying over sensational texts gives the light of truth to God and people.


Thank you, Scarlett. That was very helpful. Don't you think, though that the punishment of the "youths" was in excess of their "crimes"?
 

ntchristian

Active Member
I would love to hear your questions on Job. I identify with Job so much in my own life, which has been hard and cruel, so it remains one of my favorite historical narratives.

People seem to take the point of Job as being that if you remain faithful to God, no matter how much the enemy takes from you, God will restore and replenish many times over. I say that doesn't do anything for the actual people whom Job lost. In other words, the end justifies the means. Not to me. That's why I have a hard time taking Job as literal, as it seems to me not to be an accurate picture of God's true nature.
 
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