Conversion and Salvation

[EdSutton]

With all due respect to everyone who has posted on this thread, I have to say it seems to me to be as clear as mud. And I think much of it misses the Biblical point. To my knowledge, the only word in the NT rendered in any way as any 'form' of conversion is 'epistreph'O. I believe it is always used in the past tense or passive voice, meaning it is something that is already finished, or is done to someone. (If I am badly mistaken on this, please let me know where this is not the case.) Case in point, Peter. 'When you are converted, strenghten the brethren.' Unless one is willing to argue that Peter was not yet saved when Jesus spoke this, (Luke 22:32) it would definitely seem that a saved individual can 'be converted'. What was not said is "when you 'convert' (active voice) strengthen (which is active voice)...". I'll try and get back to this, but have to let it pass for now, as I see my wife has a prior engagement with the computer.
In His grace,
Ed

 

[AresMan]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Salvation is not by works. Salvation is through a saving faith in Jesus Chist.

I agree completely with this part.

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
But a saving faith demands a completely changed life. "Ye must be born again."

Ok. Fine. Please define with this means. Does this mean perfection? If not, then how much less than perfection is "completely changed"? Do some have more to change than others?

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
This change requires effort on our part all the rest of our lives to keep the faith. In other words, WE must pick up OUR cross and follow Him.

Ok. Maybe it is just me, but when I see someone say that salvation "requires effort on our part" it raises a red flag. What did Jesus die for if His work wasn't finished? I assume you are sure of your own salvation. With this statement do you hold your life out as the standard or example of what it means to be saved? Are you "good enough"?
"All the rest of our lives"? So, one little stumble and we need to get "saved" again? I assume you are sure that you will "keep the faith" and never stumble because of "effort on your part." Do you maintain your own salvation?

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
That's not works salvation. That's living the Christian life.

That's a double standard. That is works salvation. To say that our salvation "requires effort on our part all the rest of our lives" oozes "works salvation." What ever happened to "It is the gift of God; not of works lest any man should boast"?

Let's say that what you say is correct. Sure it makes good preaching, but PLEASE be SPECIFIC! If you can't define exactly what one must do to be saved and only use ambiguous terms like "follow Christ," "take up your cross," and "live the Christian life," then it is impossible for any Christian on this side of eternity to be completely sure of salvation. Doubt is a necessary evil for everyone. However, I John 5:13 says that we can know (even while still alive!) that we have eternal life.

I John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

If my salvation depends upon me, I cannot know that I have eternal life. If works are required for salvation then either
(1) I earn my salvation, or
(2) The Christian life is a passive robotic process that takes no effort on my part.

 

[EdSutton]

Bingo AresMan! Folks, This man from Mars has done hit the nail with his head! Dead center strike! But one little metal chip flew off the head of that nail, in the process. And my trusty magnet done picked it up! Happens to be the gift of 'discernment'. I'm not bragging, as I don't have that need. It merely happens to be one of the two spiritual gifts the Holy Spirit, according to his will, saw fit to bestow on me.(I Cor. 12:7-11) The other is not found in that particular passage, BTW. Anywho-
He (AresMan) wrote:
"Let's say that what you say is correct. Sure it makes good preaching, but PLEASE be SPECIFIC!"

I'll help both he and S&N out, on this one. 'They simply ain't no sech animal!' As one might say in the hills of KY, where I'm from. I reject that ANYTHING is "good preaching" that is not taught in Scripture. Ares is absolutely correct to note that-
"That's a double standard. That is works salvation. To say that our salvation "requires effort on our part all the rest of our lives" oozes "works salvation.""
Scripture may or may not teach "works salvation". They may or may not teach "faith alone", as opposes to "faith plus..."
I believe that Scripture clearly teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. Faith equals believe, here. And I further believe that salvation "is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast."
And I know that while some see this as efficient, they do not see this alone as sufficient. I do. I think I'm in pretty good company with Paul, Abraham, David, AreMan, to name a few. I prefer this boat to t'other side's that includes most so-called Calvinists and so-called Arminians, with one rowing one way and the other rowing the other way. I would offer that an improper distinction between 'salvation' and 'discipleship' has led to much confusion. But I also emphatically say that no amount of semantics, sophisticated sophistry, and solipsisms can inject works into faith withiout redefining what faith and believe are. (Betcha' didn't think a KY hillbilly woulda' even KNOWED any such big words, Huh!? Heh! Heh!) I have just checked; the five letters in works are 'W','O','R','K','S'. Not one of the five, let alone the whole crowd, is found in faith or believe. Think about it. Romans 11:6 adds a little more hint to this. I'm one of the bunch that is found in I John 5:10-13.
Preach it, AresMan. Ain't no substitute for the truth!
In His grace,
Ed

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by genesis12:
Quoting straightandnarrow:

"BTW, I agree with you if you're saying that something more than simply in Christ is necessary for salvation, namely living a Christian life and demonstrating love for our fellow human beings."

Friend, I hope I'm misunderstanding your comment. If our salvation depends upon us 'living a Christian life and demonstrating love for our fellow human beings,' then we are all lost. Scripture is clear: Nothing to the Cross I bring, only to the Cross I cling. Salvation by works is an empty promise, a self-defeating goal.

Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.

Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

In both these cases Christ (not me) said that in order to be saved we must follow Him. He expected for people to change their lives. This is what I was referring to in my post.

Do you reject Christ's command?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by IveyLeaguer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Salvation is not by works. Salvation is through a saving faith in Jesus Chist. But a saving faith demands a completely changed life. "Ye must be born again." This change requires effort on our part all the rest of our lives to keep the faith. In other words, WE must pick up OUR cross and follow Him. That's not works salvation. That's living the Christian life.

Now that's clear. "I have fought the good fight ... I have kept the faith ...". Would you say that is the same as 'perseverance of the saints'? And is it different in any way from eternal security? </font>[/QUOTE]I believe that what I have said is in opposition to eternal security. It can be argued that those who do not persevere until the end were never saved in the beginning but I don't believe that's true in every case.

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Why should someonewho is saved work out their salvation with fear and trembling if OSAS is true?

Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

If we don't abide in Christ we will be thrown into the fire.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The description of The Final Judgement in MA clearly says what will happen to those who do not follow Christ in their Christian life.

"Grace only" salvation is becoming more popular because it does not require decipleship. It's easy. You don't have to "do" anything. Clearly, from these and other passages in the Bible it's simply not true.

 

[AresMan]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by genesis12:
Quoting straightandnarrow:

"BTW, I agree with you if you're saying that something more than simply in Christ is necessary for salvation, namely living a Christian life and demonstrating love for our fellow human beings."

Friend, I hope I'm misunderstanding your comment. If our salvation depends upon us 'living a Christian life and demonstrating love for our fellow human beings,' then we are all lost. Scripture is clear: Nothing to the Cross I bring, only to the Cross I cling. Salvation by works is an empty promise, a self-defeating goal.

Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.

Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

In both these cases Christ (not me) said that in order to be saved we must follow Him. He expected for people to change their lives. This is what I was referring to in my post.

Do you reject Christ's command? </font>[/QUOTE]Have you sold all that you have and given to the poor? If you haven't, does that mean you are not "following Christ"?

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Since when is believing and receiving Christ a "work"?? It is commanded in God's Word that we come to Christ, believe and receive Him. It is He that does the saving by His Holy Spirit.

Calvinism says that unregenerated man not only is unwilling to come, believe and receive Christ but that he is also unable. Nowhere in Scripture is this the case - the call went out, from Christ and His Apostles, to the "whosoever will." Jesus Himself called out, "Come unto Me, all ye..." It is an act of the will that is necessary to turn to Christ to receive His free gift of salvation available to all me. Calvinism also says that regeneration precedes faith, however God's Word says that it is by grace THROUGH faith - grace is God's part, faith is ours. And that faith to believe come from hearing the Word of God preached (Rom. 10:17) and it is by faith that we stand and by which we walk (2 Cor. 5:7).


Ray