Convince Me To Vote Against My Conscience

[Benjamin]

Nothing but blah blah blah blah. You want to be god and do things YOUR way because you've certainly staked out camp against HIS way. Speaks for itself and totally sums up the wickedness flowing from your fingertips.

Ain't nothing to debate.

You're dangerous.

Back to this, eh? I've answered your typical "judgment of wicked Christians" debate tactic before, maybe you've missed it:

Zaac, your very obvious and telling obsession with defending the evil Democratic Party and its devil of a Presidential candidate, godless Hillary, along with continually attacking the conservatives of the Republican Party is rooted in pure wickedness.

I find the judgment of Christianity and Christians coming from those who generally look down on it and think themselves morally superior to it quite telling, but not in a positive way for you. Thus, your attempts to condemn those with conservative views as “being of the devil” and label it as poor Christianity carry no more truth value than that of the judgment of a obstinate young child who is angry with his father who has unsuccessfully tried to explain to him the moral value that he’s not entitled to steal someone else’s candy.

You should know that your clearly observable and spiritually unprofitable itinerary is not well hidden behind your disingenuous denials of not having this preoccupation of trying to support radical left-wing liberalism.

You need to learn to trust Jesus and cease this mania driven, wickedly dishonorable agenda of going about this as if it were not the case while in your deceit, which you will be judged for.

Trump is going to win the Presidency and you will be dangerously bound to idolatry in worshipping a martyred Party and its failed leader for years to come, all because of your fear of Trump.

Perhaps, you should heed the words of your agenda’s co-conspirators and yourself that everyone was also saying that world would greatly suffer under Obama’s leadership and although this is in most part is true we in fact have survived, so stop putting your hope in the losing Radical Left-Wing Party and start putting your hope in Jesus.


Disclaimer: The above rhetorical arguments, which are meant an example of the bulk of Zaac’s ad nauseum “debate” practices on the board, are not meant to have any supported truth value other than to display that reversing his arguments demonstrates how absurd his perception of himself trying to mock Christian' discernment is.

 

[Zaac]

Back to this, eh? I've answered your typical "judgment of wicked Christians" debate tactic before, maybe you've missed it:

Yep right back to calling your idolatrous wickedness what it s.

Zaac, your very obvious and telling obsession with defending the evil Democratic Party and its devil of a Presidential candidate, godless Hillary, along with continually attacking the conservatives of the Republican Party is rooted in pure wickedness.

Now you gone to bearing false witness.

I find the judgment of Christianity and Christians coming from those who generally look down on it and think themselves morally superior to it quite telling, but not in a positive way for you.

Excuses , excuses, excuses. Ever trying to direct the narrative to justify you supporting someone for President who is against Christ.

Thus, your attempts to condemn those with conservative views as “being of the devil” and label it as poor Christianity carry no more truth value than that of the judgment of a obstinate young child who is angry with his father who has unsuccessfully tried to explain to him the moral value that he’s not entitled to steal someone else’s candy.

Ain't nothing conservative about positioning yourself against God. So you can save that lie.

You should know that your clearly observable and spiritually unprofitable itinerary is not well hidden behind your disingenuous denials of not having this preoccupation of trying to support radical left-wing liberalism.

Try again.

You need to learn to trust Jesus and cease this mania driven, wickedly dishonorable agenda of going about this as if it were not the case while in your deceit, which you will be judged for.

Trust Jesus coming from someone who has dismissed Jesus and His way and set about his own way of "maintaining some of his Christian values"? Man,Stop playing.

Trump is going to win the Presidency and you will be dangerously bound to idolatry in worshipping a martyred Party and its failed leader for years to come, all because of your fear of Trump.

You've been up entirely too late if you think for a zeptosecond that there is any fear in me of Donald Trump.

Perhaps, you should heed the words of your agenda’s co-conspirators and yourself that everyone was also saying that world would greatly suffer under Obama’s leadership and although this is in most part is true we in fact have survived, so stop putting your hope in the losing Radical Left-Wing Party and start putting your hope in Jesus.

Are you drinking? You're the same guy who has come up with your own way to try and maintain some of your Christian values that isn't the way of Christ telling me or anyone to put their hope in Jesus? Now isn't THAT rich?

Disclaimer: The above rhetorical arguments, which are meant an example of the bulk of Zaac’s ad nauseum “debate” practices on the board, are not meant to have any supported truth value other than to display that reversing his arguments demonstrates how absurd his perception of himself trying to mock Christian' discernment is.

More nothing.

 

[Benjamin]

Try again.

You should know that your clearly observable and spiritually unprofitable itinerary is not well hidden behind your disingenuous denials of not having this preoccupation of trying to support radical left-wing liberalism.

You need to learn to trust Jesus and cease this mania driven, wickedly dishonorable agenda of going about this as if it were not the case while in your deceit, which you will be judged for.

 

[Zaac]

You should know that your clearly observable and spiritually unprofitable itinerary is not well hidden behind your disingenuous denials of not having this preoccupation of trying to support radical left-wing liberalism.

As you should know that your anti-Christ behavior does not go unnoticed.

You need to learn to trust Jesus and cease this mania driven, wickedly dishonorable agenda of going about this as if it were not the case while in your deceit, which you will be judged for.

Continues to mean nothing coming from someone who has publicly stated his intent to ignore god and try to do things his own way. No wonder you're a Trump supporter.

 

[Aaron]

Someone try to convince me that voting against my conscience is not sin. I do not think that a reasonable argument can be made.

First, you would need instruction in genuine matters of conscience. Self righteousness ain't one.

 

[Rolfe]

First, you would need instruction in genuine matters of conscience. Self righteousness ain't one.

Perhaps you should read my reason as written in Post 11 before you make offhand judgements about my character as well as others' who think similarly.

 

[church mouse guy]

I still maintain that conscience is meaningless because there is no universal conscience in mankind that tells right from wrong in spite of the romanticism of the 19th century and the romanticism of Hollywood movies. Islam, for example, commits horrific acts of murder in quite good conscience for them.

 

[Reformed]

I actively campaigned for Ted Cruz. I am going write in Ted Cruz come November. Many Christians I respect accuse me of a de facto vote for Hillary by not voting for Trump. I told them that is a silly accusation. If I vote for neither party nominee than neither nominee benefits. I tell them they have a point if they believe all republicans should vote for the GOP nominee. However I accepted Mike Huckabee's challenge to leave the GOP if I cannot accept its nominee. I am now officially "unaffiliated".

So, on to the "conscience" issue. I believe a vote for a candidate is an endorsement of that candidate. A voter may have some disagreements with a candidate, but they are endorsing the candidate on a whole. Most of the time we can live with that. In the case of the presumptive GOP nominee we are in rarified air. His lack of moral rectitude is so pronounced that it cannot be ignored. He is telegraphing the type of morality he will bring to the White House. I am amazed at the number of pastors who are actually excusing his behavior. But while I am amazed, I am not surprised. American evangelicalism has had a fascination with the Republican Party since Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority. The Republican Party used the religious right as useful idiots from the 80's up until the 2000 Bush election. The GOP Establishment now openly mocks both the religious right and the Tea Party movement. Why? Because these groups want real change. The Establishment wants nothing of the kind.

If you support the presumptive GOP nominee that is your right under our system of government. I vehemently disagree with you, but I will defend your right to disagree with me.

I suppose one good thing has occurred because of all this. I recognize more then ever the supremacy of the Gospel and the need to feed the sheep and preach forgiveness of sins to the lost. God is not a politician. He does not want His church to lose sight of the most important things, namely Christ.


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[Aaron]

You're basically voting to enslave your neighbor.

 

[Reformed]

I still maintain that conscience is meaningless because there is no universal conscience in mankind that tells right from wrong in spite of the romanticism of the 19th century and the romanticism of Hollywood movies. Islam, for example, commits horrific acts of murder in quite good conscience for them.

The moral law of God reveals to each person the knowledge of right and wrong.

Romans 1:19-20 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Call this innate knowledge of right and wrong a God-given conscience if you will.

 

[church mouse guy]

The moral law of God reveals to each person the knowledge of right and wrong.



Call this innate knowledge of right and wrong a God-given conscience if you will.

I agree that the book of nature instructs man that there is a God and a right and wrong--and also the book of nature testifies against evil. Nevertheless, I disagree that there is a God-given conscience. "Innate," as you know, means inborn or natural. I think that "conscience" is socially conditioned. In Oliver Twist. the criminal Fagin conditions the orphan boy Oliver to feel remorse if he is not able to steal something of value everyday. Attila the Hun probably felt no remorse for slaughtering, raping, murdering and burning down churches--he probably enjoyed it. Did King Jehoiakim feel any remorse of conscience about burning the Word of God? Scripture alone teaches man right and wrong. The Law was/is the schoolmaster. Am I right?

 

[Rob_BW]

Damage control. Just the effect the next president will have on the Supreme Court alone makes it worthwhile, in my opinion, to cast a vote for a viable candidate.

 

[InTheLight]

Damage control. Just the effect the next president will have on the Supreme Court alone makes it worthwhile, in my opinion, to cast a vote for a viable candidate.

The reality of ensuring the next SCOTUS justice is a conservative is something like this.

1.Trump must win.
2.Trump must nominate a true conservative.
3.The Senate must have a GOP majority.
4.The Senate must have a GOP majority of at least 58 to 42.
5.The Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell must be willing to use the nuclear option.

If all five of those things align, you might, MIGHT, get a conservative justice confirmed. I see #1 as not happening, but suppose it does? And let's say #2 happens. #3 is unlikely and #4 and #5 are extremely unlikely. I'd say #4 is a pipe dream.

Let's not forget that Antony Kennedy cast the deciding vote in the abortion ruling yesterday and he was a Reagan appointee. You never know what you're going to get. (Cue: Yeah, but we know what we're going to get with Clinton. Except "never knowing what you're going to get includes Clinton appointees as well.)

 

[Revmitchell]

II disagree that there is a God-given conscience. "Innate," as you know, means inborn or natural. I think that "conscience" is socially conditioned.

1Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

1Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,


Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

 

[Rob_BW]

The reality of ensuring the next SCOTUS justice is a conservative is something like this.

1.Trump must win.
2.Trump must nominate a true conservative.
3.The Senate must have a GOP majority.
4.The Senate must have a GOP majority of at least 58 to 42.
5.The Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell must be willing to use the nuclear option.

If all five of those things align, you might, MIGHT, get a conservative justice confirmed. I see #1 as not happening, but suppose it does? And let's say #2 happens. #3 is unlikely and #4 and #5 are extremely unlikely. I'd say #4 is a pipe dream.

Let's not forget that Antony Kennedy cast the deciding vote in the abortion ruling yesterday and he was a Reagan appointee. You never know what you're going to get. (Cue: Yeah, but we know what we're going to get with Clinton. Except "never knowing what you're going to get includes Clinton appointees as well.)

Hey, this is Rolfe's thread, don't you have enough Trump threads of your own?

 

[church mouse guy]

1Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

1Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,


Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

So do you think that a jihadist, for example, is a son of God or a temple of God with the Spirit of God within?

 

[Reformed]

I agree that the book of nature instructs man that there is a God and a right and wrong--and also the book of nature testifies against evil. Nevertheless, I disagree that there is a God-given conscience. "Innate," as you know, means inborn or natural. I think that "conscience" is socially conditioned. In Oliver Twist. the criminal Fagin conditions the orphan boy Oliver to feel remorse if he is not able to steal something of value everyday. Attila the Hun probably felt no remorse for slaughtering, raping, murdering and burning down churches--he probably enjoyed it. Did King Jehoiakim feel any remorse of conscience about burning the Word of God? Scripture alone teaches man right and wrong. The Law was/is the schoolmaster. Am I right?

I have no idea what you mean by "the book of nature". Never heard of it.

The Bible clearly states, "because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them" (Romans 1:19). In Genesis 4 the Mosaic Law had not yet been given, and with it the commandment of "thou shall not kill". Yet we see that God exacted punishment on Cain for the crime of murder. Indeed, in Gen. 4:7 God told Cain, "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." So, there is an innate knowledge of right and wrong in each human being. It has nothing to do with social conditioning. Social conditioning is a post-modern attempt to separate man from his guilt.

 

[Benjamin]

...leave the GOP if I cannot accept its nominee.

So IOWs you took away the power of your vote from the Republican party.

I am now officially "unaffiliated".

I'm sure Hillary appreciates the change in affiliation...very much! Probably, ...nah, actually there's little she doesn't see those kinds of decisions to her advantage,... hopes many more will adopt such reasoning that insists it doesn't benefit her. Heck , she would probably agree with you 100%... for "following your conscience"...

 

[church mouse guy]

I have no idea what you mean by "the book of nature". Never heard of it.

The Bible clearly states, "because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them" (Romans 1:19). In Genesis 4 the Mosaic Law had not yet been given, and with it the commandment of "thou shall not kill". Yet we see that God exacted punishment on Cain for the crime of murder. Indeed, in Gen. 4:7 God told Cain, "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." So, there is an innate knowledge of right and wrong in each human being. It has nothing to do with social conditioning. Social conditioning is a post-modern attempt to separate man from his guilt.

The book of nature is an old term for what you reference in Romans, okay?

So if there was no law, how could one break the law? How can you prove an innate knowledge of good and evil when faced with the monsters of the twentieth century? It has everything to do with social conditioning because you have not shown that man does know the difference between good and evil and I have already debated that only God is good and only God knows the difference between good and evil. Isn't that standard theology?

 

[Reformed]

The book of nature is an old term for what you reference in Romans, okay?

So if there was no law, how could one break the law? How can you prove an innate knowledge of good and evil when faced with the monsters of the twentieth century? It has everything to do with social conditioning because you have not shown that man does know the difference between good and evil and I have already debated that only God is good and only God knows the difference between good and evil. Isn't that standard theology?

I have already showed you from scripture that man is born with a knowledge of right and wrong. You are not willing to receive the biblical proof. There is nothing left to be said.