Cooking with wine?

[Ransom]

Pioneer said:

Liar. Liar. Liar. Liar.

So you say. But my conscience is clear before God, and compared with him, your opinions matter not one sliver.

In any case, I did not lie. Temptation means to be "drawn away by [my] own desires and enticed" (Jas. 1:14). I can honestly say that I have not been drawn to sin with wine or strong drink in this manner; therefore by definition, I have not been tempted by it.

Call me a "liar" if you will, but by doing so you are only making unwarranted value judgments, given that you can hardly know me.

Drinking alcoholic beverages is sinful in the eyes of God.

Balderdash.

There are five commended uses of wine in the Bible.

1. 
   <LI>Celebration.
   <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household. (Deut. 14:26)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
   Wine was a permitted part of a celebration that was commanded in the Law. If drinking wine (or other fermented beverages, as the Law clearly says) was "sinful in the eyes of God," why would God command his people to do so on a yearly basis?
   <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
   And vegetation for the service of man,
   That he may bring forth food from the earth,
   And wine that makes glad the heart of man,
   Oil to make his face shine,
   And bread which strengthens man's heart. (Psa. 104:14-15)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
   If drinking wine is "sinful in the eyes of God," then why does this God-inspired praise song list wine amongst the many gifts of God? Indeed, why does it associate wine with the very necessities of life such as vegetation, bread, and animal fodder?
   
   <LI>Thirst.
   <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. (Gen. 14:18)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
   Bread and wine was an everyday meal; bread to fill the stomach, wine to satisfy the thirst. If drinking wine is "sinful in the eyes of God," then why does the Scripture mention this meal so matter-of-factly; furthermore, how could such a sinful drunkard like Melchizedek ever be considered a type of Christ?
   <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
   Come to the waters;
   And you who have no money,
   Come, buy and eat.
   Yes, come, buy wine and milk
   Without money and without price. (Isa. 55:1)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
   Of course, this is figurative language, using water, wine, and milk as metaphors for God's grace. But that only raises the question: if drinking wine is "sinful in the eyes of God," then why in the first place would God invite people to drink spiritual wine to satisfy their spiritual thirst? (Imagine if the verse had instead said, "Everyone who is lonely, come to the brothel and satisfy yourself without cost and without price." Same thing.)
   
   <LI>Ceremonial.
   <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When you come into the land which I give to you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. . . . Its grain offering shall be two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, an offering made by fire to the Lord, for a sweet aroma, and its drink offering shall be of wine, one-fourth of a hin. (Lev. 23:10,13)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
   Again, if drinking wine is "sinful in the eyes of God, why would God a) permit the Israelites to keep vineyards; b) offer this sinful beverage on his holy altar?
   
   <LI>Medicinal.
   <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities. (1 Tim. 5:23)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
   Self-explanatory advice, given under inspiration by an apostle. Clearly the medicinal use of wine is not "sinful in the eyes of God."
   
   <LI>Aesthetic.
   <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And he said to him, "Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine; and when the guests have well drunk, then that which is inferior; but you have kept the good wine until now." (John 2:10)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
   By saying that some wine is better than other, this passage says implicitly that the purpose of wine is not simply to get drunk, but that evaluating its taste and quality and other such properties are also appropriate uses of wine. The Bible approves of wine-tasting, in other words. If drinking wine was "sinful in the eyes of God," how could the steward even have made such a judgment (how would he know?), and why would Holy Scripture take such an evaluation for granted?

Each time you take a drink you are sinning.

Unless, of course, said drink was for one of the above approved purposes: celebration, thirst, ceremonial, medicinal, or aesthetic.

P.S. If you are a Baptist, your church covenant has in it a statement that says that members promise to abstain from the sale and use of alcoholic beverages.

Not necessarily.

 

[Rev. Joshua]

Ransom,

Well done. Could I buy you a Sam Adams?

Joshua

 

[myreflection26]

Ransom,

Or would you prefere some Peach Arbor Mist mmmmm (sending hubby to the wines and spirits shop) Very very good homework!!!

Sue

 

[myreflection26]

Ransom,

Or would you prefere some Peach Arbor Mist mmmmm (sending hubby to the wines and spirits shop) Very very good homework!!!

Sue

 

[rhoneycutt]

Ransom, Joshua & Sue
My wife and I are going to drink the last bottle of 1994 Cakebread Cabernet Suavignon from a case we have had 5 years tonite.
Wish ya'll were here!
Russell

 

[Gina B]

You poor thirsty, dying, heavy of heart, in pain people in lack of modern meds!
Maybe we'll set up a fund to send you clean drinking water, a good psychologist, and some morphine.
Ugh.
(Gina tips her hat, curtsies, and politely leaves the conversation she regrets starting in the first place.)

 

[Rev. Joshua]

Regarding the Psalm and Deuteronomy passages, I remember an Orthodox rabbi who came and spoke to our worship class. He mentioned the use of wine in the service and at home during observance of the Sabbath. He said,

"Some of you might ask why we use wine for worship. The answer, because it makes people happy!"

The more I thought about it, the more profound it seemed.

Russell, careful what you wish for...Macon is only an hour and 1/2 away.

Joshua

 

[Ransom]

Nicole said:

In the time this was written, they didn't have the medication we have. THey didn't have the anesthesia, they certainly didn't have the wide selection of pain medication that is available to us today. If we didn't have these medical advances and someone were in the situation of dying and being of heavy heart, I'd say sure, but we do have these things.

Does anyone else notice the irony in condemning the medicinal use of alcoholic beverages, which are available off the shelf, taste pleasant, and contain a small amount of the least poisonous of all the alcohols; yet at the same time, commending modern pharmaceuticals, which contain much more potent poisons, taste terrible and have to be swallowed quickly with copious fluids, and are only available with the permission of your doctor?

 

[Dr. Bob]

Has this thread run its usefulness? We have two opposing views, each spouting scripture (and denying those of the other side as being valid or applicable).

Now more heat than light. Give me your thought if you want more, or I'll lock down this puppy and we can discuss things we agree on - like Calvinism!

 

[Footwasher]

I just want to clarify that I never said drinking is a sin. I said it's dangerous. I gave you the example of my dad, who, like you, thought that he could handle drinking in moderation, but is now a degenerate wallowing in alcoholism. I gave you the example of my friend, who would have a drink with people to open the door to witnessing, but instead ended up in a pit of immorality. I told you that I have seen children get drunk on their parents' cooking wine.

Drinking in moderation is dangerous because of what it can lead to. It is not, in itself, a sin.

I have never in my life known anyone who drank in moderation and continued drinking in moderation. I have seen lives ruined and families destroyed by people who were sure (just as sure as you all are) that they could handle one drink.

If something really bad happened to you...if your husband or wife left you...if you lost everything you owned...if you got kicked out of your church...

I've seen a lot less than that drive people from moderation to excess.

Why put the temptation in front of you?

Just some food for thought.

God bless you. Grace and peace to you.

[ September 21, 2001: Message edited by: Footwasher ]

 

[Gina B]

Thank you Dr. Bob.
Gina

 

[Helen]

I've watched this thread develop and so many thoughts have come to mind.

For instance -- I have an inherited disorder called paradoxic drug reactions. Therefore the safest cough syrup is a little wine or brandy on ice. Maybe an ounce.

I grew up in a family with European traditions. Like European children, I and my siblings were allowed a little wine and water on very special occasions. Result? By the time I got to high school I thought nothing was dumber than the kids who wanted to go out and get drunk.

The Bible condemns alcoholic beverages in excess, not otherwise.

That being said, I have also worked in a long term hospital, which was at least half alcoholics long past where rehab could help them. One thing I noticed was that so many of the men (most, by far, were men) were also extremely intelligent. That baffled me. Wouldn't they know better? One of the doctors semi-answered the question for me by mentioning that something he had noticed was that mental and physical sensitivities often seemed to run together.

As a creationist, I would also want to mention that we should remember that our genes just ain't what they used to be. We are carrying enormous genetic load (accumulated bad mutations) in the human race now and it very well may be that more and more people simply cannot deal with alcohol for this type of reason.

All things considered, I would applaud those organizations and churches who refuse to serve alcoholic beverages. So often people turn to church because they are at the ends of their respective ropes (sometimes they even turn to the Lord!), and some of those ropes were woven out of alcohol...

But neither is it a sin for those who can deal with alcohol. Someone above said they have never seen a moderate drinker who stayed a moderate drinker. Allow me to introduce myself... I am 53 years old and probably have a couple of glasses of wine a month and a daquiri or two in the summer if someone is making them. That is probably more light than moderate, but neither is it abstenance.

Some folks see nothing wrong with a tranquilizer or an anti-depressant. As one of the other folks said, those are much more dangerous than a glass of wine. ONE glass...grin.

After that yes, it can be dangerous.

Salt can also kill in large amounts.

 

[Stephen]

I want to tell you folks straight up that I'm an alcoholic. I drank wild turkey 101 just about everyday. I thought nothing of spending a whole saturday knocking back straight tequila with lemon and salt. I have quit for 20 months 21 days and 18 hrs and 1 min. as I write this. When I read the folks mentioning drinking the different booze I wanted to get up and go get a half pint real bad. But I didn't ... so I thank the Lord for gettin me through another day.

 

[Nicole]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Has this thread run its usefulness? We have two opposing views, each spouting scripture (and denying those of the other side as being valid or applicable).

Now more heat than light. Give me your thought if you want more, or I'll lock down this puppy and we can discuss things we agree on - like Calvinism! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't agree with you more Dr. Bob. I need to leave this thread anyway...I don't want to be in this crowd when God decides to show them more clearly!

By the way RANSOM...your sarcasm is duly noted...you wouldn't happen to be drinking now, would you?

 

[Rockfort]

&lt; My wife has rheumatoid arthritis and she has never used that as an excuse to drink alcoholic beverages. &gt;

Yeah? So what DOES she use as an excuse?

&lt; Why do you? &gt;

Proverbs 31:6,7; I Timothy 5:23 ["infirmities"].

&lt; BTW - Are you at the point of dying? If not, your support verse doesn't hold water. &gt;

"...wine unto those that be of heavy hearts [or, 'whose life is bitter']". These verses may not hold water, but they sure hold wine.

Also, notice your Anglican Bible (KJV) translates I Timothy 5:23 "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." Other translations insert a word not actually in the text such as exclusively, meaning "drink no loger water exclusively." So is the KJV (1) wrong about never drinking water, (2) wrong about the use of wine medicinally, or (3) not applicable to all Christians?

 

[myreflection26]

Can I just say I agree with Bob and Gina...lets put this thing to rest. Gina I can totally see why your sorry you started it in the first place

AHHHHHHH

Sue

 

[Pioneer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>... wine unto those that be of heavy hearts [or, 'whose life is bitter']. These verses may not hold water, but they sure hold wine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would suggest that you turn your bitterness over to the Lord then he will make your life sweeter than honey.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The "wine" that is spoken of here is grape juice. Medical experts have shown that drinking pure grape juice on a regular basis is good for intestinal problems. It will keep away the ulcers (but drinking alcoholic beverages will give you ulcers).

Bro. Steve Smith

[ September 21, 2001: Message edited by: Pioneer ]