Cooperation with Catholics

I think it is important to realize that there is no collective denominational salvation. It is purely individual.

I see many baptists who point out gaping holes in the theology of catholics or pentecostals. These in my opinion DO exist. But I would be very, very wary of declaring that a person cannot be saved if he doesn't do _____ or _____.

If a person believes Christ died for his/her sins then he/she can be saved. I agree that belief in a DIVINE Christ who died and rose is essential for salvation. But that's about the only RESTRICTIONS I'd apply.

You argue that they musy know exactly what they believe. What about the methodist or Pentecostal who has semi-Pelagian beliefs?

 

Hi Charles,

You make a very good point, however my argument is not with an individual member of the Catholic church who "does not know exactly what they believe"....We have enough of those in the Baptist churches!

My argument or problem if you will, is with the parent organization that either teaches or knowingly allows glaring error.

To illustrate:

Even we as Baptists, though congregational in church government ascribe to what has loosely been termed the "Baptist distinctives". To wit: If your pastor got into the pulpit and started teaching that the Koran was the word of God...You'd fire him. Why? Because we as Baptists hold that the Bible is the Word of God.

How much more responsibility then does a church that is set up with a "chain of command" (I can't think of the name of the form of church government right at this moment) like that found in the Catholic Church bear in regard to its teachings?
By the same token, how much responsibility does it bear to correct false doctrine?

My problem then is not with individuals, but with the entity charged with guiding those individuals.

 

Posted by Gold Dragon:

Amen! As long as it's out of love!

 

No it’s not. The statement which led to this answer had to do with the necessity or non-necessity of the “sacraments” for salvation. The doctrine of the Church of Rome is that a person must die in the state of sanctifying grace in order to qualify for eternal life. Sanctifying grace always is dispensed by human mediators, one of them Mary, the “Mediatrix of all graces”. No fundamentalist I know of promotes that doctrine.

As I have said before, believing in Jesus Christ is the easiest thing I know how to do, so I guess I’m an “easy-believer”. As a former Catholic I was taught that if I committed a mortal sin I was then going to hell unless I could get to confession. That’s not sanctification, it’s “salvation” or re-salvation. Call it what you wish.

Again call it what you will or agree with the Church of Rome if you want but if someone is going to hell, I call it being lost.

When I left the Church of Rome I looked for a blood free church as well as a measure of purity of doctrine. There are a few. I can’t find any Baptist churches that have burned and garroted people on a mass-murder basis.

NASB Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Matthew 7
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

HankD

 

Hank,

When I left the Church of Rome I looked for a blood free church as well as a measure of purity of doctrine. There are a few. I can’t find any Baptist churches that have burned and garroted people on a mass-murder basis.

You know the reformers killed people too - but they drowned them instead of burning them.

This has nothing to do with the average catholic or even with JP II.

Whether or not you see it, you have fallen into the fundamentalist trap of believing that those who are different are lost. Christ didn't tell the Samaritans they would all go to hell even though he did tell them they were doctrinally errant.

If a catholic believes that Christ has truly has paid the penalty from his sins then he is saved whether or not he asks Mary to pray for him as well. If you deny this then you deny that the blood can save - because you have said that that you cannot just believe but rather you have to believe like me.

 

IMHO what has happened in the past is in the past....and should be left there.

We know that salvation is not through any organization or denomination, but by an individual receiving Jesus Christ by faith. God saves out of every tribe, nation, people, and tongue....One of my best friends was saved while still an active member of the Jehovah's witnesses.

That being said, I hold the position that the church (any church/denomination) should be held accountable for what it (as an entity) proclaims as truth to its members. If there is error being proclaimed as fact, then it needs to be brought to light and dealt with IAW the Word of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

My argument with the RCC is that they (once again as a church entity) IMO are leading dear, precious, trusting people down a destructive path. A path that too many times has little to do with salvation as taught in the Bible, and too often has to do with traditions of men.

I hate no one, but I am in opposition to the teachings of the RCC as a church.....

 

It isn't a matter of any fundamentalist trap. It is a matter of trusting in the finished work of Jesus Christ for your salvation plus nothing else. It is a matter of having faith that his blood and nothing but his blood is sufficient to pay for our sins. Catholic theology seems to teach that people must pay for part of their sins themselves. Anyone who holds this view is not saved according to the biblical gospel.

That's before you even get started on what significance baptism plays...

 

As I have said many times, some Catholics are undoubtedly saved. But they are saved in spite of, rather than because of, the RCC and its teachings.

 

Scott.
I was raised a Catholic and attended Catholic school for 8 years. I don't see how a Catholic that holds to their doctrine can be saved. They have a different Gospel and hold to a different hope. Read the Book of Galatians.

They have clearly added to the Gospel, and I would also contend that they have a different Jesus as well.

I would recommend a book that both sides endorse:

"Roman Catholics and Evangelicals. Agreements and Differences" by Norman L. Geisler and Ralph E. MacKenzie

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0801038758/qid=1113015498/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-7209236-8735201?v=glance&s=books

 

Here is a sampling of a work by a highly respected former bishop in the Catholic Church named Alphonsus de Liguori's. His "Glories of Mary."

Biblical quotes are mine to refute his heresy.

This from Alphonsus de Liguori's "Glories of Mary": [He was a Catholic bishop in the 18th century and a canonized saint]. Published in 1750, it has been the most celebrated Marian devotional work in the Catholic Church with over 800 editions in many languages.

"With reason does an ancient writer call her [Mary] "the only hope of sinners", for by her help alone can we hope for the remission of sins. (pg 83) Isa. 43:8-11, Acts 4:12

”He fails and is lost who has not recourse to Mary.” (pg 94).

”Shall we scruple to ask her to save us, when the way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary?” (pg 169)

"At the command of Mary all obey - even God." St. Bernardine [Catholic canonized saint] fears not to utter this sentence; meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands...Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; though of course, it is always true that where the Son is omnipotent by nature, the Mother is only by grace. (Pg 180-82)

"There is no doubt, (St. Bernardine adds) that Jesus Christ is the only mediator of justice between men and God; [the bad, harsh one] but because men acknowledge and fear the divine Majesty, which is in him as God, for this reason it was necessary to assign us another advocate, [don't miss that] to whom we might have recourse with less fear and more confidence, [more confidence?!] and this advocate is Mary, than whom we cannot find one more powerful with his divine majesty, or one more merciful [Rom. 9:15] towards ourselves...A mediator, then was needed with the [mean] mediator himself." (Pg. 195-96)

"Be comforted then, O you who fear," will I [also] say with St. Thomas of Villanova [another lost Catholic saint]: "breath freely and take courage, O wretched sinners; this great Virgin, who is the mother of your God and judge, [again, the mean one] is also the advocate of the whole human race; fit for this office, for she can do what she wills with God; most wise, for she knows all the ways of appeasing him; universal, for she welcomes all, and refuses to defend no one." (Pg. 198). So much for Luke 13:2-5 and John 12:48.

St. Anselm, to increase our confidence, adds, that "when we have recourse to this divine Mother, only we may be sure of her protection, but that often we shall be heard more quickly, and be thus preserved, if we have recourse to Mary and call on her holy name [Acts 4:12; Rom. 10:13] , than we should if we call on the name of Jesus our Saviour," and the reason he gives for it is, "that to Jesus as a judge it belongs to punish; BUT MERCY ALONE BELONGS TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN as a patroness." (Pg. 136-37) Isa. 55:1-9; PS. 31, Rom. 9:15.

If God is angry with a sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she witholds the avenging arm of her Son, and saves him. (Pg. 124). Ex. 34:5-7.

One popular prayer in Mary's honor is the Hail Holy Queen , which is known in Latin as the Salve Regina . It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.
For Catholics who are reading this, please try to overcome your familiarity with this text and really look at the words. Doesn't this sound like worship?

“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”

Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled The Glories of Mary which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. The book even says that there is no salvation outside of Mary. Some people suggest that these views are extreme and not representative of Catholic Church teaching. However, instead of silencing de Liguori as a heretic, the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a “doctor of the Church” (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes.[9]

Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.” [10] Pope Pius IX said, “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.” [11]

[9] William Webster, The Church of Rome at the Bar of History , page 87.
[10] In the Encyclical Intersodalicia (1918). Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, Essentials of Evangelical Theology , Vol. 1, page 196.
[11] In the Encyclical of February 2, 1849. Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, Essentials of Evangelical Theology , Vol. 1, page 196.

 

Popes that Worship Mary

Blessings said to be obtained through Mary.—
"So, then, it is taught in authorized books, that 'it is morally impossible for those to be saved who neglect the devotion to the Blessed Virgin;' that 'it is the will of God that all graces should pass through her hands;' that 'no creature obtained any grace from God, save according to the dispensation of His holy Mother;' that Jesus has, in fact, said, 'no one shall be partaker of My Blood, unless through the intercession of My Mother;' that 'we can only hope to obtain perseverance through her;' that 'God granted all the pardons in the Old Testament absolutely for the reverence and love of this Blessed Virgin;' that 'our salvation is in her hand;' that 'it is impossible for any to be saved, who turns away from her, or is disregarded by her; or to be lost, who turns to her, or is regarded by her;' that 'whom the justice of God saves not, the infinite mercy of Mary saves by her intercession;' that God is 'subject to the command of Mary;' that 'God has resigned into her hands (if one might say so) His omnipotence in the sphere of grace;' that 'it is safer to seek salvation through her than directly from Jesus.'"

Mary worship held up as a cure for trouble.—
"F. Faber, in Ms popular books, is always bringing in the devotion to the Blessed Virgin.. He believes that the shortcomings of English Roman Catholics are owing to the inadequacy of their devotion to her. After instancing people's failures in overcoming their faults, want of devotion, unsubmission to God's special Providence for them, feeling domestic troubles almost-incompatible with salvation, and that 'for all these things prayer appears to bring so little remedy,' he asks, 'What is the remedy that is wanted? what is the remedy indicated by God himself? If we may rely on the disclosures of the saints, it is an immense increase of devotion to our Blessed Lady, but remember, nothing short of an immense one. Here, in England, Mary is not half enough preached. Devotion to her is low and thin and poor. It is frightened out of its wits by the sneers of heresy. It is always invoking human respect and carnal prudence, wishing to make Mary so little of a Mary, that Protestants may feel at ease about her. Its ignorance of theology makes it unsubstantial and unworthy. It is not the prominent characteristic of our religion which it ought to be. It has no faith in itself. Hence it is, that Jesus is not loved, that heretics are not converted, that the Church is not exalted; that souls, which might be saints, wither and dwindle; that the sacraments are not rightly frequented, or souls enthusiastically evangelized. Jesus is obscured, because Mary is kept in the background. Thousands of souls perish, because Mary is withheld from them. It is the miserable unworthy shadow which we call our devotion to the Blessed Virgin, that is the cause of all these wants and blights; these evils and omissions and declines. Yet, if we are to believe the revelations of the saints, God is pressing for a greater, wider, a stronger, quite another devotion to His Blessed Mother.'"

The Pope's whole reliance on the Virgin.—
In his Encyclical Letter of 1849, Pius IX wrote: "On this hope we chiefly rely, that the most Blessed Virgin—who raised the height of merits above all the choirs of Angels to the throne of the Deity, and by the foot of Virtue 'bruised the serpent's head,' and who, being constituted between Christ and His Church, and, being wholly sweet and full of graces, hath ever delivered the Christian people from calamities of all sorts and from the snares and assaults of all enemies and hath rescued them from destruction, and, commiserating our most sad and most sorrowful vicissitudes and our most severe straits, toils, necessities with that most large feeling of her motherly mind—will, by her most present and most powerful patronage with God, both turn away the scourges of Divine wrath wherewith we are afflicted for our sins, and will allay, dissipate the most turbulent storms of ills, wherewith, to the incredible sorrow of our mind, the Church everywhere is tossed, and will turn our sorrow into joy. For ye know very well, Ven. Brethren, that the whole of our confidence is placed in the most Holy Virgin, since God has placed in Mary the fullness of all good, that accordingly we may know that if there is any hope in us, if any grace, if any salvation, it redounds to us from her, because such is His will Who hath willed that we should have everything through Mary."

Mary called Co-Redemptress with our Lord.—
"We had heard before, repeatedly, that she was the Mediatrix with the Redeemer; some of us, who do not read Marian books, have heard now for the first time, that she was ever our 'Co-Redemptress.' The evidence lies, not in any insulated passage of a devotional writer (which was alleged in plea for the language of M. Olier), but in formal answers from Archbishops and Bishops to the Pope as to what they desired in regard to the declaration of the Immaculate Conception as an Article of Faith. Thus the Archbishop of Syracuse wrote, 'Since we know certainly that she, in the fulness of time, was Co-redemptress of the human race, together with her Son Jesus Christ our Lord.' From North Italy the Bishop of Asti wrote of 'the dogma of the singular privilege granted by the Divine Redeemer to His pure mother, the Co-redemptress of the world.' In South Italy the Bishop of Gallipoli wrote, 'the human race, whom the Son of God, from her, redeemed; whom, together with Him, she herself co-redeemed.' The Bishop of Cariati prayed the Pope to 'command all the sons of Holy Mother Church and thy own, that no one of them should dare at any time hereafter to suspect as to the Immaculate Conception of their Co-redeemer.' From Sardinia, the Bishop of Alghero wrote, 'It is the common consent of all the faithful, and the common wish and desire of all, that our so beneficent Parent and Co-redeemer should be presented by the Apostolic See with the honour of this most illustrious mystery.' Spain, the Bishop of Almeria justified the attribute by appeal to the service of the Conception. The Church, adapting to the Mother of God in the Office of the Conception that text, 'Let Us make a help like unto Him,' assures us of it. and confirms those most ancient traditions, 'Companion of the Redeemer,' 'Co-Redemptress,' 'Authoress of everlasting salvation.' The Bishops refer to. these as ancient, well-known, traditionary titles, at least in their Churches in North and South Italy, Sicily, Sardinia, Spain."

A Parallel drawn between Jesus and Mary.—
"As our Redemption gained its sufficiency and might from Jesus, so, they say, did it gain its beauty and loveliness from the aid of Mary. As we are clothed with the merits of Christ, so also, they say, with the merits of Mary. As Jesus rose again the third day without seeing corruption, so they speak of her Resurrection so as to anticipate corruption, in some three days;' as He was the first-fruits of them that slept, so is she; as He was taken up into heaven in the body so, they say, was she; as He sits at the Right Hand of God, so she at His Right Hand; as He is there our perpetual Intercessor with the Father, so she with Him; as ' no man cometh to the Father.' Jesus saith, 'but by Me;' so 'no man cometh to Jesus', they say, 'but by her;' as He is our High Priest, so she, they say, a Priestess; He, our High Priest, gave us the sacrament of His Body and Blood; so, they say, did she, 'her will conspiring with the will of her Son to the making of the Eucharist, and assenting to her Son so giving and offering Himself for food and drink, since we confess that the sacrifice and gifts, given, to us under the form of bread and wine, are truly hers and appertain unto her. As in the Eucharist He is present and we receive Him, so she, they say, is present an received in that same sacrament. The priest is 'minister of Christ,' and 'minister of Mary.' They seem to assign to her an office, like that of God the Holy Ghost, in dwelling in the soul. They speak of 'souls born not of blood, nor of flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God and Mary;' that 'the Holy Ghost chose to make use of our Blessed Lady to bring His fruitfulness into action by producing in her and by her Jesus Christ in His members;' that 'according to that word, 'the kingdom of God is within you,' in like manner the kingdom of our Blessed Lady is principally in the interior of a man, his soul; that 'when Mary has struck her roots in the soul, she produces there marvels of grace, which she alone can produce, because she alone is the fruitful Virgin, who never has had, and never will have, her equal in purity and fruitfulness.'"

Declaration that Mary is in the Eucharist.—
(Oswald.) "'We maintain a (co-)presence of Mary in the Eucharist. This is a necessary inference from our Marian theory, and we shrink back from no consequence.' 'We are much inclined,' he says afterwards, 'to believe an essential co-presence of Mary in her whole person, with body and soul, under the sacred species. Certainly to such a presence in the Eucharist, 1. there is required a glorious mode of being of the Virgin body of the Holy Mother. We are not only justified in holding this as to Mary, but we have well-nigh proved it. 2. The assumption of a bodily presence of Mary in the Eucharist compels self-evidently the assumption of a multi-location (i.e. a contemporaneous presence in different portions of space) of Mary, according to her flesh too. 3. One who would receive this must be ready to admit a compenetration of the Body of Christ and of that of the Virgin in the same portion of space, i.e. under the sacred species.' The writer subsequently explains that 'the "lac virginale" must be looked upon as that of Mary, which is primarily present in the Eucharist, whereto, in further consequence, the whole Christ the Head, the Blessed Virgin is, as also her soul, would be joined.' 'The Blood of the Lord, and the lac of His Virgin Mother, are both present in the sacrament.'"

Mariolotry to swallow up all other devotion.—
"'Assuming that, in and under Christ the Head, the Blessed Virgin is, after her Assumption, as it were, the neck of the Church, so that all grace whatever flows to the Body through her, that is, through her prayers, it might be argued, that, for such as have this belief to ask anything of or through her, is identical in sense, but in point of form better, than to ask it directly of Christ, in like manner as to ask anything of or through Christ, is identical in sense, but clearer and fuller in point of form, than to ask it directly of the Father. And hence, it might seem that it would bean improvement, if, reserving only the use of the appointed forms for the making of the Sacraments, and an occasional use of the Lord's Prayer (and this rather from respect to the letter of their outward institution than from any inward.199 necessity or propriety), every prayer, both of individuals and of the Church, were addressed to or through Blessed Mary, a form beginning, 'Our Lady, which art in heaven,' etc., being preferred for general use to the original letter of the Lord's Prayer; and the Psalter, the Te Deum, and all the daily Offices, being used in preference with similar accommodation.'" Horrid ravings of Faber, whose writings are very popular among Papists.--"'There is some portion of the Precious Blood which once was Mary's own blood, and which remains still in our Blessed Lord, incredibly exalted by its union with His Divine Person, yet still the same. This portion of Himself, it is piously believed, has not been allowed to undergo the usual changes of human substance. At this moment, in heaven, He retains something which was once His Mother's, and which is, possibly, visible, as such, to the saints and angels. He vouchsafed at mass to show to S. Ignatius the very part of the Host which had once belonged to the substance of Mary. It may have a distinct and singular beauty in heaven, where, by His compassion, it may one day be our blessed lot to see it and adore it. But with the exception of this portion of it, the Precious Blood was a growing thing,' "&c.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/catholic04.htm


On May 7, 1997 Pope John Paul II dedicated his general audience to "the Virgin Mary" and urged all Christians to accept Mary as their mother. He noted the words spoken by Jesus on the cross to Mary and to John--"Woman, behold thy son!" and "Behold thy mother!" (John 19:26,27), and he claimed that in this statement "IT IS POSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND THE AUTHENTIC MEANING OF MARIAN WORSHIP in the ecclesial community ... which furthermore is based on the will of Christ" (Vatican Information Service, May 7, 1997).
John Paul II underlined that "the history of Christian piety teaches that MARY IS THE PATH THAT LEADS TO CHRIST, and that filial devotion to her does not at all diminish intimacy with Jesus, but rather, it increases it and leads it to very high levels of perfection." He concluded by asking all Christians "to make room (for Mary) in their daily lives, ACKNOWLEDGING HER PROVIDENTIAL ROLE IN THE PATH OF SALVATION" (Ibid.).

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/popesays.htm

 

I am not a Reformer or a Protestant. Baptist churches are autonomous.
The church I attend is 90 years old. I have read it’s history and they have never burned anyone at the stake or strangled them to death. They have never slaughtered innocent
men, women and children in the name of God.

Yes it does. The average Catholic needs to know what his/her church teaches and their history. Each Pope elected and ascending the “Throne of Peter” puts his stamp of approval upon all the popes and their “ex cathedra” pronouncements before him including the commission of the crusades, Spanish and Latin Inquisitions and other “Holy wars”

Dealing personally with people I don’t tell anyone they are lost. Only the Spirit of God can cause that conviction in a person. My method of participation in the spread of the Gospel is to preach Christ from the Scripture as led by the Spirit of God.

What if this dependence upon Mary and praying to her is a symptom of a defective faith in Christ? Then the one who takes your position by way of complicity have given support to a false hope (what little hope there is in the Church of Rome). To me it’s better to not make that judgment but to bring the following verses to the attention of not just Catholics but anyone including fundamentalists:

All verses are taken from the Douay-Rheims:

John 14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.

See my statement above about my local church which is autonomous.

I will speak for myself and what I was taught. If there was a question as to whether a sin was mortal, you were to assume it to be mortal and get to confession right away. Also, if you believe a sin to be mortal it’s mortal even if it’s defined as venial. This does not necessarily work the other way. That is, if you believe a sin to be venial and it is defined by Rome to be mortal then you will still go to hell without the sacrament of Absolution.

You are "preaching to the choir" on both counts.

HankD

 

Answered with:

I don’t need a 20 page explanation of Jesuit double-talk to explain why the Marian Dogma stating that Mary as the coredemptrix and mediatrix of all graces doesn’t violate these Scriptures.

Answered with:

No need to be sorry you are IMO just wrong. Baptist Church autonomy was purchased with the blood of martyrs shed by the hands of the Church of Rome and the Church of England.

Answered with:

I personally don’t. I don’t make statements about individuals salvation, as I said I bring the Scripture to the table to be considered.

HankD